An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[EdenT]

Ok, so I read a bunch of pages, but not all..so forgive me if someone's already said this...but do you realise there are already measures in place to stop zombie killing?

1st Death = Weakness
2nd Death = Double Weakness (Half HP etc of Tier 1 if you die during weakness)
3rd Death = You cannot perform ANY actions. You cannot even enter active mode.

So that argument isn't totally solid (or I'm the only one in the thread stupid enough to get to Tier 3 :P). Often I've run back to a near-dead guildleve mob and attacked it whilst weakened with multishot etc on Archer to kill one of a pair and run away to make the next battle a little easier, or to finish off the mob to save time and progress to next group.

I do agree that a harsher penalty could be added though. I like some of Yoshi's ideas.

I wouldn't totally object to an EXP/SP loss if there was no delvling, but I don't think such a timesink is really fair to players. MMO's require years to play anyhow, and time is not renewable - money/repair/anima etc is.

[Synthesis]

Not really fair. Most of the times if you die you're not "leeching", as most of the times, if you die in a group, it's not really your fault (which is another of the reasons why death penalty should not be harsh).

When some folks die, they wait for the rest of party to wipe the rest of the mobs on the screen. Party has to wait for these weakened members afterwad. Seriously, people abuse this a lot and no SP/EXP during dead mode would be just fair add. I dont want lose SP, EXP when I die. But why should I still gain them ?
This would motivate some folks to play more carefully and to follow the party.

I am not for SP/EXP lose during death and I am glad they dont wan to implent such a feature. I just dont see a reason why dead people should be getting exp/sp. (its nice sometime, but... seriously, this will add another reason to try to not die)

Edit : SP/EXp could be 1/2 when dead.

[kukurumei]

When some folks die, they wait for the rest of party to wipe the rest of the mobs on the screen. Party has to wait for these weakened members afterwad. Seriously, people abuse this a lot and no SP/EXP during dead mode would be just fair add. I dont want lose SP, EXP when I die. But why should I still gain them ?
This would motivate some folks to play more carefully and to follow the party.

I am not for SP/EXP lose during death and I am glad they dont wan to implent such a feature. I just dont see a reason why dead people should be getting exp/sp. (its nice sometime, but... seriously, this will add another reason to try to not die)

That would only work in grind situations. There are plenty of situations that don't involve XP but involve recklessness.

[Synthesis]

Weakness -
what about decrease wek. time time by (?30-60sec) at least and add feature to lose SP/EXP only during weakness is active.

ei: This should satisfy both groups of players, these that dont want to lose sp/exp. And these that they want to. Now you can delevel :-)

[Akumu]

Weakness -
what about decrease wek. time time by (?30-60sec) at least and add feature to lose SP/EXP only during weakness is active.

ei: This should satisfy both groups of players, these that dont want to lose sp/exp. And these that they want to. Now you can delevel :-)

Sp loss for a 2nd(or 3rd) tier death would be the only way I accept that form of penalty. I'm still not a fan of the idea BUT for a compromise it's not bad.

I think the tiers should have a "cooldown" before it resets and you're in the clear. For example: You die and you are weakened for 3 mins(tier 1) but if you die again even within 2 mins AFTER the weakened state you reach tier 2. So if you fail to stay alive again for the 2mins after being weakened you hit the max tier of 3.

This basically means you have a 5 min time frame of reaching the next tier BUT only 3mins of that time you are weakened. Since we already have 3 tiers in our death penalty that should determine the severity of the costs we pay.

Just my thoughts on the matter since I have pretty much been only sayin "NO SP LOSS BLAH BLAH!"

edit: The 2min lingering death effect is just a placeholder. It being about 3-4 mins is cool also imo.

edit2: I feel this way the time sink doesn't change yet the challenge of needing to stay alive and not zombie rises. You're time sink would only increase if you chose to sit on the side lines longer than 3 mins.

[Peregrine]

I don't like the idea of raise saving you gear repairs any more than I like the idea of it saving you sp. It makes the team and the mages pay for what was likely your mistake unless you're a tank. When dealing with public events like SP grinding, we already had too many people asking for raises from the mages when raising didn't help them be anything but too lazy to walk from the crystal to camp. Now there will be even more incentive to stay down and tax the mages for a raise, without adding any real legitimate reason...

You're staying down for 3 minutes instead of using the weakness downtime to walk back to camp, because you want to save a half an iron ingot?

I'm going to ask archers that die because they're using too many personal buffs and meleers that stand in the path of breath attacks walk back to camp still unless the sp penalty really hurts them. IMO gear damage isn't even a penalty. It'll just give people an excuse to get a raise so they don't have to walk and they can thus AFK while they're weak instead of walking.

So really it's not a death penalty. You're giving people that die an incentive to choose the less team-oriented option, which is a free 3 minute AFK so they don't have to walk as opposed to not taxing their mages and walking back to camp. I have better things to cast than raise for better reasons to cast than saving people nuggets and a 2 minute walk.

Again, the major flaw in gear damage for death is that it gives people an excuse to stay down and insist raise. not primarily to save gear durability, but to get a free AFK excuse slip.

Walking is a better death penalty than gear durability. Send em to the nearest crystal if they die, with raise giving them the option to return to their HP or return to the nearest crystal and higher-tier raises with the ability to perform spot-raises.

Event: Death
Option: Return to HP. Keep every feature of the death penalty as it is.
Option: Raise. Return to HP or return to nearest crystal. You have to walk back to the party once you're raised, but you don't have to walk from Uldah at least.
Option: Raise II. Options of raise I with added option raise on the spot. This is limited to high cast time.
Option: Raise III. Options of raise II with decreased weakened time. This is limited to high cast time and high MP cost.

For run of the generic deaths that make up 90% of the game, for the death prone, for the generic sp grinding death there is returning to crystal and walking. A fair penalty for preventable deaths. We all know those people who will sit there and delay the time when they are back to fighting condition just because they don't want to walk back to camp. Don't give them any excuse not to get to hiking already.

For deaths where you're really trapped and the crystal is dificult, there's raise II.

For deaths where your tank goes down and you need them up, there's raise III but it's going to eat your mana and take forever.

TLR version: walk of shame should be the death penalty in most cases.

[kukurumei]

I don't like the idea of raise saving you gear repairs any more than I like the idea of it saving you sp. It makes the team and the mages pay for what was likely your mistake unless you're a tank. When dealing with public events like SP grinding, we already had too many people asking for raises from the mages when raising didn't help them be anything but too lazy to walk from the crystal to camp. Now there will be even more incentive to stay down and tax the mages for a raise, without adding any real legitimate reason...

You're staying down for 3 minutes instead of using the weakness downtime to walk back to camp, because you want to save a half an iron ingot?

I'm going to ask archers that die because they're using too many personal buffs and meleers that stand in the path of breath attacks walk back to camp still unless the sp penalty really hurts them. IMO gear damage isn't even a penalty. It'll just give people an excuse to get a raise so they don't have to walk and they can thus AFK while they're weak instead of walking.

So really it's not a death penalty. You're giving people that die an incentive to choose the less team-oriented option, which is a free 3 minute AFK so they don't have to walk as opposed to not taxing their mages and walking back to camp. I have better things to cast than raise for better reasons to cast than saving people nuggets and a 2 minute walk.

Again, the major flaw in gear damage for death is that it gives people an excuse to stay down and insist raise. not primarily to save gear durability, but to get a free AFK excuse slip.

Walking is a better death penalty than gear durability. Send em to the nearest crystal if they die, with raise giving them the option to return to their HP or return to the nearest crystal and higher-tier raises with the ability to perform spot-raises.

Event: Death
Option: Return to HP. Keep every feature of the death penalty as it is.
Option: Raise. Return to HP or return to nearest crystal. You have to walk back to the party once you're raised, but you don't have to walk from Uldah at least.
Option: Raise II. Options of raise I with added option raise on the spot. This is limited to high cast time.
Option: Raise III. Options of raise II with decreased weakened time. This is limited to high cast time and high MP cost.

For run of the generic deaths that make up 90% of the game, for the death prone, for the generic sp grinding death there is returning to crystal and walking. A fair penalty for preventable deaths. We all know those people who will sit there and delay the time when they are back to fighting condition just because they don't want to walk back to camp. Don't give them any excuse not to get to hiking already.

For deaths where you're really trapped and the crystal is dificult, there's raise II.

For deaths where your tank goes down and you need them up, there's raise III but it's going to eat your mana and take forever.

TLR version: walk of shame should be the death penalty in most cases.

Not all walks are equal, and easily abused. not to mention the bumrush try try again approach.

[Peregrine]

No, because the current system would prevent you from bumrushing.
Again, if your walk is too hard then there is raise II. If you're a lowbie fighting somewhere that a walk is too hard, I suggest you fight in safer areas. For some people "my walk is not equal" equates to dying in a raptor party. Raptors continuously eat them as they bumble back to camp, the agro icons doing nothing to help them avoid its jaws. I've spent plenty of time dying in coerthas and always immediately return to crystal. In the same zone, if my walk and your walk aren't equal, your walk needs to improve.

More than 75% of my raises thus far, the correct action was actually that the target should have already started walking. In too many cases players choose to hurt the team's output because they want a raise so they get a free 3 minutes to afk.

They don't like the idea of having to walk with a raise, because to them that's what a raise is for.

Too many hardcore players want annoying SP reduction losses so they can argue that if they wish they deserve the right to throw SP at an enemy for the win. That's fail.

Too many casual players are just too lazy to either care to be mindful about death or walk when they die and honestly need penalized.

I say beat both of them with a switch if they die. Nerf zombie rush potential even more and don't reinforce deaths as an excuse for a free afk.

Durability loss would just become an excuse to do something that's already lazy.

[Tamlin]

Now I haven't read all the posts here, and dunno if it have been mentioned.
But for me, it is natural that you have weakness after raise ofc. The same as if you are badly injured irl, you need some time to recover even if you've been patched up at the hospital.

For additional penalty, I would suggest a 10 % durability-loss in the current equiped gear.
With high-rank gear, there is difficult to come by the repair-mats from time to time, and this should add an extra level to the "I don't wanna die"-factor.
But in this case, there should also be alocated repair-NPCs to some more camps, and not only in the city. Not every camp of course, but somewhat more than as of today. That way you don't have to teleport to a city to repair in case there is noone that can repair in the current PT.
Durability-loss in this manner, will also require the crafters in the party to repair more often in case of grinding, which can add valuable SP to the crafter, as well as the feeling of being usefull - which I had the impression that crafters were supposed to be in a much bigger way pre-release.
Especially will this count in the case that instanced PvE-content is released.

A higher tier of Raise-spells would also be awesome, one that raises you without the weakness, but still leaves you with geardamage and - in my opinion - just a minimum of HP (MP should be at current state as when you died).
This will make it easier to ress the tank in case the tank should die, but would of course also clear all enimity the tank had in the beginning.
This will ensure that you have to add some tactics to the fight in case the tank dies, like pop all your -enimity-skills, heal and buff up the tanks, and let the tank build up enough enimity to hold the mob(s) before the party can start to nuke again.
As of now, one just raise the tank, and the tank start hitting the mob while everyone is spamhealing the tank so that s/he won't die. Or if unlucky, the tank is raised, and everyone runs to dissengage the mob to avoid a full wipe.

[Kaedan]

Ok, so I read a bunch of pages, but not all..so forgive me if someone's already said this...but do you realise there are already measures in place to stop zombie killing?

1st Death = Weakness
2nd Death = Double Weakness (Half HP etc of Tier 1 if you die during weakness)
3rd Death = You cannot perform ANY actions. You cannot even enter active mode.

So that argument isn't totally solid (or I'm the only one in the thread stupid enough to get to Tier 3 :P). Often I've run back to a near-dead guildleve mob and attacked it whilst weakened with multishot etc on Archer to kill one of a pair and run away to make the next battle a little easier, or to finish off the mob to save time and progress to next group.

I do agree that a harsher penalty could be added though. I like some of Yoshi's ideas.

I wouldn't totally object to an EXP/SP loss if there was no delvling, but I don't think such a timesink is really fair to players. MMO's require years to play anyhow, and time is not renewable - money/repair/anima etc is.

Well, obviously the current penalty isn't working, since people still do it and Yoshi has decided to do something about it. I agree with you that Time is the most valuable asset in an MMO. Which is why I suggested SP loss with buyback using Anima. If you don't want to lose the time spent on the SP, you can use your Anima to buy it back. This would have the added benefit of encouraging other forms of transportation (once their released... chocobos and airships). And if you wanted to get really carebear about it, they could even add an option to buy an extremely limited amount of Anima per day/week with Gil. That would give players full choice on "how they want to die" basically.