An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Zuellni]

Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but what if death will automatically reduce your gear to a 0% damaged state and that when damaged, gear will actually greatly hinder your fighting abilities.

For example if your weapon is damaged, your actions effectively do 0 damage. With damaged armour and accessories, they would actually hinder your stats, stamina or HP/MP like say, reduce your hp/mp to 1 if all your body piece is damaged or make you move as if under the effect of gravity if your shoes or pants are damaged for example. Of course, you may say "People would just take off their weapons, armour and accessories!" in which case, it could just be made so that damaged weapons, armour and accessories can't be removed until it is repaired to good condition.

Some reasons I think this would be a good solution are:

-It would provide a good reason to fear death as it effectively disables you as an adventurer/party member until you can get to a repair NPC that would charge exorbitant prices or find a crafter to repair for you. (Of course, in this case, it would be nice if it was changed so crafters can repair gear that someone is currently wearing)

-It would provide good reason to keep your gear in tip-top shape at all times and will likely bolster the usage of repair wards.

-It would provide good reason to wait for the Raise benefits as described by Yoshi-P instead of simply choosing to return to homepoint.

-It suggests a more realistic cause and effect of being beaten to death as well as consequences of using damaged gear. (ie. Broken weapon doing 0 damage is like trying to slice through tough hide with a dull blade. Damaged armour no longer protects you, damaged pants hinders movement.)

-It gives the abilities like Ashkin Eluder much more purpose to all classes, especially DoL and DoH classes.

[Mr_Gyactus]

I wanna try to give a simple suggestion.
I don't like harsh penatlies for death or exp loss, but this is my idea of game, and I think everyone should find what they search. What do you think about a different server(s) with exp loss/time sink/whatever you want, and others without? The player knows, the player choose where to go, everyone is happy. Am I missing something?

[Apricoth]

Yes, Yoshi's proposal is a middle ground... but it's not the only solution, and it's far from the only idea. And a lot of Casuals don't even want to accept his proposal.

So why is his middle ground acceptable to talk about, but another option isn't? Why is it that some Casuals will accept his idea and not even give other ideas the time of day?

You have yet to prove a "vast majority" are against an SP/Anima penalty. Just taking a quick estimate from this thread alone, it'd say it's split about 50/50. A few people making a lot of posts =/= majority.

You made the claim that Japanese forums are the same. Link me a forum where you think the majority is against a SP/Anima death penalty. Because I haven't found one.

And your last two statements just go further to proving that you aren't willing to budge on your stance... you are crafting a straw man and you know it. People are not looking for individual flagellation. They recognize the need for a deterrent for dying FOR EVERYONE (Yoshi even recognizes this).

Everyone has to keep in mind that what "casual" means to you means something completely different to me and other individuals. I find Yoshi-san and his team idea on how to approach death in the game reasonable and fair. I am a very casual gamer and I approve of it. If there are ideas that are comparable to what he has on the table that doesn't kill my game time, I am all for it. Reading through out all the posts here I have yet to see something comparable in my opinion.

In my previous post, SP loss should stay out of the picture. If SP loss is a must down the road, the surplus system must be well balanced or gotten rid of altogether. With surplus in place, forget it. No one should be advocating a SP death loss system in the meantime. No... one.

[Kaedan]

It's the idea that will be implemented. Maybe it's time to give it up instead of just continuing to grind on the nostalgia for a concept that almost every developer scrapped, with reason.

No, it's the idea he's thinking of implementing. There's a big difference.

Because his idea is not an unreasonable timesink with absolutely zero positive effects. XP/SP death penalty is. Not only it doesn't add anything to the fun factor of the game (which is what counts), but actually detracts from it, triggering frustration in people that don't have tons of time to pour into the game and can take timesink in stride for the sake of defining themselvs "hardore"

HA! Now you've lost all credibility. "Not an unreasonable timesink with with absolutely zero positive effects"? What else do you call armor damage that will cost you gil or materials? His idea is just another timesink as well. It isn't "positive" reinforcement either. And the problem with his idea is that Gil is so worthless at the moment, it will not discourage death at all (which is the point for a death penalty). You don't have an argument here.

You must be reading very selectively. The people making "a lot of posts" are mostly people continuously arguing in favor of XP/SP death penalty that just seem not to be able to let go.

Again, now you're spouting nonsense. I could say the exact same thing about the people continuously arguing against SP penalty. Like I said, it's a pretty split issue. It's about 50/50 on the issue.

I linked it. Maybe you just ignored it. Besides, if you're so good at reading japanese I can't fathom how you managed to miss it since it's in the dev tracker AND in the most logical place to look for (battle systems forums), with the most logical title "about death penalty". Maybe you just looked into the general discussion forum, assuming that the Japanese are like us and just dump everything in the general discussion forum ignoring the specific ones we've been given?

Yeah, I found it... no thanks to you. I don't know where you linked it. And guess what? It's pretty split over there as well. The "majority" isn't against it... there are just as many in favor of SP penalty as against it. Quit making assumptions based on your own wants.

So people should be willing to budge because you say so? Sorry. Doesn't work like that.

No, people should be willing to discuss and compromise because it's what you do when you can't agree on something. I bet you were one of those kids that always had to get his way and cried when he couldn't, or cried when he had to share his toys. Nobody taught you the value of sharing and compromise.

[Nephera]

whoa chill out guys.

[Abriael]

personal attacks and insults

You need to chill mate. It's quite obvious by the aggressiveness of your posts that you cannot let go of this outdated and surpassed mechanic. Funny thing is that you talk about "compromising".
If your idea of compromising is attacking your counterpart on the personal level, I'll be glad to opt out.

No, it's the idea he's thinking of implementing. There's a big difference.

If you think he's going to go back to a penalty that will introduce any more frustration in a game that already is full of timesink and frustrating aspects for many players, when most other game developers have done away with that mechanic, i see a big delusion here.
Yoshida aims to keep his players and bring back others, not to alienate more.

HA! Now you've lost all credibility. "Not an unreasonable timesink with with absolutely zero positive effects"? What else do you call armor damage that will cost you gil or materials? His idea is just another timesink as well. It isn't "positive" reinforcement either. And the problem with his idea is that Gil is so worthless at the moment, it will not discourage death at all (which is the point for a death penalty). You don't have an argument here.

Luckily, it's not for you to decide who is credible or who has an argument. You seem to have missed the word "reasonable". The fact that gil is very easy to get is exactly what makes the penalty reasonable, as it doesn't hamper the player excessively and doesn't cause frustrations in the ones that don't have as much time to pour in a game as you do.

Again, now you're spouting nonsense. I could say the exact same thing about the people continuously arguing against SP penalty. Like I said, it's a pretty split issue. It's about 50/50 on the issue.

Not really, it's not. You must have a quite selective reading (not really surprising, as you didn't even notice when I posted the Japanese thread after you asked and couldn't find it yourself). There are very few people arguing for an sp-related penalty, exactly like here.

Yeah, I found it... no thanks to you. I don't know where you linked it. And guess what? It's pretty split over there as well. The "majority" isn't against it... there are just as many in favor of SP penalty as against it. Quit making assumptions based on your own wants.

I don't need to make assumptions. I just need to read. And I linked it where you asked.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ll=1#post62871
Looks like your reading is quite selective-

No, people should be willing to discuss and compromise because it's what you do when you can't agree on something. I bet you were one of those kids that always had to get his way and cried when he couldn't, or cried when he had to share his toys. Nobody taught you the value of sharing and compromise.

You seem to forget something. It's not *for us* to decide what is to be implemented (as much as you seem to think that talking loudly and aggressively will get your opinions considered more). So it's not for us to find compromises and mediations. We're here to express our opinion, and then the team will consider and filter it, implementing what's good for their vision of the game, and discarding what's bad. It's quite evident from Yoshida's post that they've already discarded what's bad: SP/XP based death penalty.

[Dreamer]

I just want to say that I really like the idea of the anima penalty. Gives us a good incentive to not die, without hampering character progress.

[Zkieve]

I think this is another PvP vs PvE,Jump vs No jump, etc etc etc , thread.
Like i said in the other thread the only viable options for the dev team is,
Make a Poll.
Do whatever they think is right.

People have their tastes in games as diverse as colors.Discussing How should ffxiv should be is hard , everyone will want what they like even if it means to F*** over others choices.

game needs a freaking direction.

[Synthesis]

Remove ability to leech SP while dead. When you die, you can still get SP and EXP if player nearby kill the mob. This will be enough to add to penalty.

[Abriael]

Remove ability to leech SP while dead. When you die, you can still get SP and EXP if player nearby kill the mob. This will be enough to add to penalty.

Not really fair. Most of the times if you die you're not "leeching", as most of the times, if you die in a group, it's not really your fault (which is another of the reasons why death penalty should not be harsh).