Not every job needs an Evolved Mode: Monk

[Hastatus]

Let me start by saying that I am a DS4 Controller user on PC who has never had any issues mapping the skills of every job using the built-in customization options. SE and others can keep saying Evolved will make playing 'easier for controller users' but you are falsely lumping in many controller users who have never had issues. Be honest you want less strain on players' minds (including many keyboard users) and less strain on devices that have fewer buttons.

I made a choice in 7.0 to stick with Monk to do almost everything. The writing was on the wall and I suspected the jobs as I knew them were going to be killed off and Evolved is the assassin's name. As far as I am concerned Monk is the last holdout. I knew it was coming because I could easily compare the rotations of Awesome-PVE-Monk to Boring-PVP-Monk. I wouldn't be surprised if I have clocked more hours on Monk than any other player post 7.0.

Awesome-PVE-Monk
I use 3 buttons on each side of my controller (6 buttons total) which each represent one of the 3 Forms (2 buttons per form).
The 3 Forms are combined in different proportions to both boost the damage of the other button of the same form and to create 3 Burst attacks (yes one of them is a player-error/recovery version; still love it).
The 3 Burst attacks are combined to create 1 Ultra-Burst attack if done right.
You have to pay attention, think and plan all while having the fastest GCD in the game.
So I get to use 7 buttons throughout my rotation (the seventh is for when I want to use bursts).
The system sounds way more complicted than it is in use.

Boring-PVP-Monk
Press 1 button over and over for the 7 different animations that simply increase in damage.
So I am forced to only use 1 button and if I do not maintain uptime I must start over.

Let me tell you something from the perspective of an older gamer who also does many forms of manual labor. I treasure my hands. As you get older you have to be more careful. I can tell you that games that use fewer buttons are harder on my hands. There is nothing worse than pushing one button in the same place over and over. Games and jobs in FFXIV that require a much greater variety of finger combinations allows me to play longer without developing aches and pains. In the case of Monk I use 4 different fingers, always two at a time, in 6 different combinations like playing an instrument that prevents any one joint from getting overly strained. When I combine that with expanded cross-hotbars and my 33 or 34 total action buttons my hands and brain actually get a very balanced workout (I'm including pots, spine drops, phoenix downs, etc).

Pressing the same button over and over like on PVP Monk is braindead, boring, and causes excessive stress on the joint of a single finger.

I have heard claims that 'fewer buttons does not mean less complex'. This is wishful thinking. As Monk shows fewer buttons CAN mean WAAAAAAAAAAAAY less complex. It's the difference between Chopin and Chopsticks.

I would argue that more buttons and more complex gameplay is actually healthier on the hands and minds of gamers. Having fewer than 16 buttons so that I would not need expanded controller settings would mean using fewer fingers and fewer braincells on the whole.

If Monk and other jobs are going to play more and more like their PVP versions, my joints and mind would probably have to quit FFXIV or quit doing any roulettes to help newer generations because older slow content with newer boring jobskill rotations will suck so much even if you have most of your kit by lvl 50.

SE has said the new 8.0 Jobs will have an Evolved gameplay mode only: i.e. they will not have a Reborn version. That is perfectly reasonable. But if this is the case is it not also fair that a few older, existing jobs have only Reborn versions? Monk should not get an Evolved version because it would basically kill off everything that makes the job fun to play. There is no combination of these 6 buttons and 3 forms that would result in any interesting form of Evolved mode. It's just not there. Monk's gameplay style is antithetical to Evolved. The seven actions being performed in the same order everytime by one button is the most insanely boring job rotation I can imagine for PvE. No number of flashy new animations is going to hide 1-button rotations. I get the feeling that Evolved Monk is going to play like an overly flashy devolved Pugilist. If there are going to be plenty of easy mode jobs that I will not play, why can there not be a couple harder oldschool jobs that are too complicated for casual gamers on mobile devices to play?

Why can't some of the older, more unique jobs like Monk whose playstyle is antithetical to the Evolved playstyle simply not have an Evolved version at all?

[Reimmi]

I'm fairly certain thats why reborn mode will exist
They'll use data to see how many people are using each version for the jobs, and see that "oh, this evolved one is terrible" and go back to the drawing board on a jobs design

[ForsakenRoe]

It depends how they actually 'do' Evolved mode. IE, it's possible that, rather than making the 6 'main GCDs' into 2 buttons that auto-update to whichever Form you're in, or even one that alternates in a looping 123456 combo (please do not, I beg), they could keep all 6 buttons as seperate, and rework Blitz into a more Fighting Game style combo system, where doing certain combos lets you press Masterful Blitz. A bit like Dancer's Dance steps, but rather than being randomly generated when you 'start' the dance, the combos would be 100% deterministic, memorizable and unchanging. And unlike Dancer's steps, there would be no 'start combo' button, you'd just do the combo as you're playing, and hit Masterful Blitz when you complete the combo and it lights up

EG instead of the current gameplay of doing 123 Blitz, 111 Blitz, anything Blitz, we could see specific combos, like 'DK > Boot > Twin > Blitz' or 'Demolish > Snap > Twin > Snap > Blitz' or some such. If Blitz has no CD, you could entirely remove the AOE GCDs, and have the incidental cleave damage of certain Blitz moves be Monk's answer to 'needing to AOE'. For example, if you have something like Elixir Field dealing 800p to all enemies struck with NO damage falloff, but it requires that you press 'Demolish > Twin> Boot > Blitz' to access it, Elixir Field's damage replaces that of the AOE 123 combo, despite EF being 'every 4th GCD', because the AOE 123's are only 130-150p per GCD currently.

Tune potencies as required, of course, but I think the end result would be more satisfying, because instead of the smaller numbers of Rockbreaker and the like, we'd get an occasional blast of HUGE numbers, while also allowing Monk to funnel Single Target damage into a priority target if needed. For example, the first pull in Amaurot has those Sprites that tether the Healer and should be focused down first. The above Monk could do Single Target GCDs on the Sprite to kill it ASAP, while also blasting the pack with an occasional AOE Blitz that hits damn hard compared to the 'more spammable' AOE moves that other Melee might have

[Hastatus]

I'm fairly certain thats why reborn mode will exist
They'll use data to see how many people are using each version for the jobs, and see that "oh, this evolved one is terrible" and go back to the drawing board on a jobs design

I like your optimism. In a perfect scenario this is what would happen...however I'm pessimistic about this situation for numerous reasons. SE has said they didn't have the resources in the past (e.g. FT) but they now have enough resources to work on double the number of Jobs? I think it is way too ambitious: look how long it has taken for Beastmaster; Beastmaster is a little more involved, but it doesn't have to be tested for interactivity with 40 other jobs. At some point you have to be willing to say a job is good enough. I have heard many more complaints about non-Monk jobs. I would rather they leave Monk the way it is now and put those Evolved-Monk resources towards improving a job with many more complaints that actually needs them.

SE and their Marketing department are trying to put their thumbs on the scale: if Evolved jobs output more DPS even though being simpler you know what job they want players to choose. More players than not will choose a higher DPS version even if they do not like the playstyle. They also named the new job systems in a biased way: think about it...if you do not play an Evolved job in FFXIV does that make you an 'unevolved' FFXIV player? They have also been setting up future blame: if any players end up hating their Evolved job reworks who do you think they will blame first SE or 'the controller users' for whom this is all being done? Again this whole situation could turn out very good, very bad, or more likely end up being mediocre. 'Jack of all trades, master of none' keeps popping up in my mind when thinking about how big a bite they are trying to take all at once. I obviously do hope they succeed in making at least one job good enough to keep me playing.

...For example, the first pull in Amaurot has those Sprites that tether the Healer and should be focused down first. The above Monk could do Single Target GCDs on the Sprite to kill it ASAP, while also blasting the pack with an occasional AOE Blitz that hits damn hard compared to the 'more spammable' AOE moves that other Melee might have

This comment caught me off-guard. I was just in Amaurot on Dynamis a few days ago doing this exact with my existing kit helping a healer get their first clear. Am I being punked? lol

I'm sorry but I do not see it. Making Blitz fixed after every fourth regular GCD would remove so much flexibility and lower DPS a lot in current Monk: e.g. I can currently build up Blitz's between packs in dungeons and I can prep a Blitz during downtime using AOE attacks (e.g. to get a cleave on double targets like in M10S). Monk's free form to be able to choose the type of Blitzes (e.g. Triple Lunar) make Monk interesting. Removing AOEs to create a quirky job would also hurt Monk: the 120 Damage AOE gets guaranteed Crits under Perfect Balance which make it very useful in melting packs of mobs in Dungeons. Monks also have to use AOEs while moving because single-target attacks will often not hit moving enemy targets (I actually like this...my arms are only so long). Monk already has many 'blast<s> of HUGE numbers'. Sometimes it is better to leave a job that is well-enough alone. I think SE and many players have forgotten one important rule that used to be a thing in more games: when you want to create a new playstyle you apply that new playstyle to a new job, that is the purpose of new jobs. Monk used to have a quirk and they then removed it to make it like other jobs due to complaints: Monk didn't used to have any ranged attacks (I originally picked up Monk for Eureka because it didn't have ranged attacks and I thought it would be more fun and it was). I have to go back and play older content synced to have this Monk experience, but if we have most of our kit by lvl 50 Monk might stop having no ranged attacks everywhere.

I'm sorry for being overly passionate.

***********

Monk is probably the most perfect job that exists. It has more flexibility and more options than almost any other job out there. It is so much fun when the tanks die and the boss turns to you and you pop 8 different buttons to mit the damage: Riddle of Earth, Mantra, Heal, Earth's Reply, Feint, Bloodbath, Health Potion, Six-Sided-Star and kite...you didn't believe me did you? XD I cannot think of any improvements that could be made that it also needs, but I can think of thousands of ways they could make Monk worse, stripping away its soul. I fear Monk will lose a bunch of abilities that the designers do not understand (or have the time to program) in order to reduce the number of buttons and try to hide their removal with flashy animations turning Monk from a complex strategic job to a boring one. Bringing in a PVP-focused person and tasking them with changing every job will inevitably lead to some already good jobs being hurt because changing the jobs becomes the goal. The more perfect a job is the more likely changes are going to do harm. The problem is only players who have spent enough time with Monk will know how good and fun Monk truly is. I fear they want every job to be understood by average people within hours (the ultimate job homgenization). Look how quickly whiny people complained about Viper because they were not willing to give it any time and complaints are always faster and louder than praise. I was looking forward to Viper but SE quickly rereleased 'Evolved' Viper and then I never touched the boring version. That was the perfect opportunity to have two versions of a job and see which one people gravitated to over time, but that is not what SE wants. They want every job to be as close to an optimal average as possible: they want jacks, not masters.

[0blivion]

If you can't keep enough uptime to maintain a combo, I promise you that that is a you problem. Also, you can multi-map buttons.

[Hastatus]

If you can't keep enough uptime to maintain a combo, I promise you that that is a you problem. Also, you can multi-map buttons.

Thanks for the compliment.

[Aluja89]

A lot of words for something you haven't seen yet.

[Miradelle]

A lot of words for something you haven't seen yet.

Based off of DRG requiring you to press 3 positionals every one and a half minutes, I don't think monk will fare much better. For comparison, I used to press 3 positionals in back-to-back GCDs in endwalker as dragoon. This level of gameplay is just sad ... People are rightfully freaking out about WHM, too, with the removal of the DoT upkeep that people messed up a lot, to not being LITERALLY a one button glare spammer ... which is instant cast, removing the hardest part about doing damage as a healer: movement.

While there may be more that we will see, these changes just demonstrate a certain direction the jobs are going. While the plan to lower the skill floor is fine, how they're going on about it is bringing the entire ceiling down with it.

[Aluja89]

Based off of DRG requiring you to press 3 positionals every one and a half minutes, I don't think monk will fare much better. For comparison, I used to press 3 positionals in back-to-back GCDs in endwalker as dragoon. This level of gameplay is just sad ... People are rightfully freaking out about WHM, too, with the removal of the DoT upkeep that people messed up a lot, to not being LITERALLY a one button glare spammer ... which is instant cast, removing the hardest part about doing damage as a healer: movement.

While there may be more that we will see, these changes just demonstrate a certain direction the jobs are going. While the plan to lower the skill floor is fine, how they're going on about it is bringing the entire ceiling down with it.

"Are you ready to devolve to the next level with devolved mode?"

Yeah I'm not gonna take you seriously.

[Miradelle]

"Are you ready to devolve to the next level with devolved mode?"

Yeah I'm not gonna take you seriously.

That's nice.