Devolved jobs will kill this game.

[RaionKansen]

Why does it matter if the players sharing their opinion on the changes do high end content or not?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it's a minority of the player base that even engages in high end content. So you're saying the majority of players isn't allowed to comment on changes that affect all combat gameplay?

If most players are casuals, and the topic is if the jobs/combat overhaul makes the gameplay more or less enjoyable, why should anyones opinion be dismissed? It's best if all players from casual to hardcore can feel engaged and have fun with the combat system.

It matters a lot because you cant understand or appreciate the full scope of the job or battle designs in the game without doing the content that actually puts that knowledge to the test.

If you're only doing roulette and MSQ you are very minimally affected by job changes.

20% of players clearing Savage content is pretty high for an MMORPG. Savage also demands more personal responsibility than most PvE content in other games.

It means 1 in 5 players are doing the content. Its more like 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 when you're amongst people at max level. Sure its a "minority", but its a hell of a lot of players once you start interacting with people.

[TheRealMadruck]

I was open to the prospect of having less buttons in exchange for more complexity and identity. After all other games such as WoW have shown how that can work. What you showed at Fanfest mortified me and looking at the infographs for how they worked mechanically confirmed my initial impression. Despite repeatedly stating to everyones faces that this is not in fact an easy mode you may be shocked to hear that your players do have the eyes and ears and a brain to see that it clearly is easier in almost every single way. All you've done is replace high execution low complexity with low execution low complexity and add a single token class flavor button. There is simply not enough going on to hold any long term players interest. It's actual braindead phone game slop.

If evolved is implemented with a similar design philosophy to what we saw in Fanfest I will tell you with 100% certainty that you will see a new all-time low in players next expansion.

Why? Because it is boring. People are bored. You have been bleeding players for years because your game has become so godawfully painfully boring. You are accelerating this process by making it even more boring. I really don't know why this even needs explaining. When players are bored they will inevitably leave when they get distracted by something that isn't boring. Boredom goes up. Money line goes down. Do you get it yet? How many consecutive years of increased simplification and decreased players does it take for you to finally connect the dots???

I do not blame Hikaru Tamaki. He seems very talented and has an excellent track record. The PvP rework is the best thing to happen to this game in a long time. I am sure if he had full creative control over jobs he would bring this game into a second golden age. I am assuming this is just a result of him working under heavy design restrictions imposed in some misguided attempt to attract some mythical modern audience that is never going to show up. There are going to be 24 jobs in the game. You have more than enough design space to make something for everybody several times over and not just the SMN/VPR mains of the world.

Please have him go back to the drawing board with the freedom to take the concepts further and with far more depth. The new dragoon LB, countering and movement mechanics are great but it is nowhere near enough to make up for the other 90% of gameplay being braindead autocombo chaining. Do not release jobs in that state or this game is actually just over. Contrary to popular belief nobody here wants that. We all love FFXIV and want it to succeed. But it cannot and will not happen if you refuse to budge on this very simple fundamental issue again.

Everything else you announced sounds great and is supposed to make this an expansion an easy win for you. None of that is going to matter if you stop right before the finish line and mess the gameplay up again. Good job design is not optional this go around.

You must really hate Viper huh?!?! For two years now people have already been playing a version of Evolved Mode which if you paid attention to the demonstration they did, it looks and feels very identical to how Viper currently plays. As for the bit about "braindead", you must not have played games like Black Desert with its flow/absolute system, GW2 with its weapon auto-chains, or the many other MMOs that have a nearly similar style of combat. Those games are not dead or boring...GW2-1.5-2m users, BDO 200k. So yea...if you do not like the new system...you do not have to use it!!! You have the old system...use it!

[Aelin_Ashryver]

You must really hate Viper huh?!?! For two years now people have already been playing a version of Evolved Mode which if you paid attention to the demonstration they did, it looks and feels very identical to how Viper currently plays. As for the bit about "braindead", you must not have played games like Black Desert with its flow/absolute system, GW2 with its weapon auto-chains, or the many other MMOs that have a nearly similar style of combat. Those games are not dead or boring...GW2-1.5-2m users, BDO 200k. So yea...if you do not like the new system...you do not have to use it!!! You have the old system...use it!

Gw2 combat is miles apart from evolved ffxiv jobs? What? That games APM is on average much, much higher thanks to perma quickness and alac uptime on top of certain specs having just as many buttons to hit as ffxiv jobs if not more. The closest comparison is some skills on gw2 flipping and that's it, they still have plenty buttons to push for many specs. The reason the gw2 community comes up with low intensity builds is cause so many are simply not accessible as the evolved mode SE is looking to implement. Which I think it's great they do, but gw2 combat to be played well is simply not accessible for the casuals, as we see with the massive dps diff between an open world casual vs the sweaty raiders.

BDO also last I played had a complex combat also, esp given the game revolves around pvp so it's by it's nature just harder to pull off. The pve combat is literally running from pack to pack one shotting things.. Unless they added raids or something the last years, can't say I've checked in much with the game after they initially gutted pvp and killed off my guild in 2018.

I look forward to trying the evolved mode, so do my fc mates for the most part. But people are allowed to be worried when the evolved mode is objectively from a mechanical stand point easier and not only that there is a certain rhythm to be enjoyed hitting separate buttons. Like my reapers shroud being turned into 1 button would feel pretty bad for losing that feel for example. I think the evolved mode will shine if it is easy to grasp but actually has a lot of opportunity to show your skill and adjust to the fight. If it really is just a condensed version of what we have presently with only 1 thing tacked on for flavour it won't be enough to satisfy those players looking to show some skill.

It's why I think them keeping reborn mode was a great idea, every time I start to feel worried over evolved mode I just remember ah it's ok I still have the original mode. And I can just look forward to seeing how evolved plays out.

[Falak]

PvP felt great owing to the more free form, chaotic nature of the battle flow thanks to player input from both sides though. Pulling that kit into current PvE would be akin to playing Shatter & stick to ice licking the entire match.

I assume 2nd showcase would probably lean more toward encounters than jobs. However, given how they spent a long time trying to sell to players that EW —> DT awesome ‘new encounter design’… if that is their new design, then I’m not optimistic.

The encounter design in DT has been great. Ask any raider what they think of savage, criterion, or the ex's. Even FT was pretty good the issue was just with getting in.

[TheRealMadruck]

Gw2 combat is miles apart from evolved ffxiv jobs? What? That games APM is on average much, much higher thanks to perma quickness and alac uptime on top of certain specs having just as many buttons to hit as ffxiv jobs if not more. The closest comparison is some skills on gw2 flipping and that's it, they still have plenty buttons to push for many specs. The reason the gw2 community comes up with low intensity builds is cause so many are simply not accessible as the evolved mode SE is looking to implement. Which I think it's great they do, but gw2 combat to be played well is simply not accessible for the casuals, as we see with the massive dps diff between an open world casual vs the sweaty raiders.

BDO also last I played had a complex combat also, esp given the game revolves around pvp so it's by it's nature just harder to pull off. The pve combat is literally running from pack to pack one shotting things.. Unless they added raids or something the last years, can't say I've checked in much with the game after they initially gutted pvp and killed off my guild in 2018.

I look forward to trying the evolved mode, so do my fc mates for the most part. But people are allowed to be worried when the evolved mode is objectively from a mechanical stand point easier and not only that there is a certain rhythm to be enjoyed hitting separate buttons. Like my reapers shroud being turned into 1 button would feel pretty bad for losing that feel for example. I think the evolved mode will shine if it is easy to grasp but actually has a lot of opportunity to show your skill and adjust to the fight. If it really is just a condensed version of what we have presently with only 1 thing tacked on for flavour it won't be enough to satisfy those players looking to show some skill.

It's why I think them keeping reborn mode was a great idea, every time I start to feel worried over evolved mode I just remember ah it's ok I still have the original mode. And I can just look forward to seeing how evolved plays out.

Why do I even bother replying to posts like this...why do I torture myself with people on these forums who clearly have reading comprehension issues...
Hey Aelin...Like I sincerely do not know how you equate a person mentioning one example, again one example, not all(this is the key point) to how another MMO combines keys in a very specifically named manner to somehow think they were saying the entire system functions that way! Not even Black Desert uses the combined button system other than the one I mentioned, that is why I gave specific examples. Just amazing...

[Mcg55ss]

If you polish a turd for 9 months it will still be a turd. That is what they chose to show so it is fair to assume that it is representative of their vision for the final product. They are free to come out and state definitively that the final version will look significantly different.

so what have been doing with the current combat.....honestly ANYTHING they could do almost would be a improvement. I am hopeful plus having a full kit at lvl 50 would make doing leveling and other duties feel better than dreading going down to 2 button rotation. I am hopeful they will get it right because for the first time they look to be taking risk again.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

Why do I even bother replying to posts like this...why do I torture myself with people on these forums who clearly have reading comprehension issues...
Hey Aelin...Like I sincerely do not know how you equate a person mentioning one example, again one example, not all(this is the key point) to how another MMO combines keys in a very specifically named manner to somehow think they were saying the entire system functions that way! Not even Black Desert uses the combined button system other than the one I mentioned, that is why I gave specific examples. Just amazing...

Your point was to refute evolved mode being simplistic and boring just because the buttons are condensed. And you likened it to GW2 and BDO and mention that those games are not boring. The similarlity between evolved and gw2 auto atk being the whole thing holding your point up, that if they are not boring then evolved also will not be boring. But the GW2 combat is not nearly similar enough for the comparison to validate your point. At all. In fact the GW2 combat is more complex and mechanically demanding than current ffxiv at highest levels esp in pvp. Your one point is flawed. So yeah

The part that makes those games not boring to play has next to no crossover with how evolved mode looks to be playing. So you don't get to use them as a defence for evolved mode. You literally said they have a "nearly similar style of combat" and they are not similar, not nearly similar, they are miles apart in gameplay. Work on your own ability to read and write before you talk about others.

[Miracle_Diva]

It matters a lot because you cant understand or appreciate the full scope of the job or battle designs in the game without doing the content that actually puts that knowledge to the test.

If you're only doing roulette and MSQ you are very minimally affected by job changes.

20% of players clearing Savage content is pretty high for an MMORPG. Savage also demands more personal responsibility than most PvE content in other games.

It means 1 in 5 players are doing the content. Its more like 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 when you're amongst people at max level. Sure its a "minority", but its a hell of a lot of players once you start interacting with people.

What knowledge are you talking about? The one you took from someone in Balance discord to "optimise your game plan"? Well guess what, casual players also do that. There is content outside of Savage that makes people interact with their jobs, surprise. It doesn't matter if it's Savage or 24 man or else, you shouldn't think that raiders have higher IQ than people who prefer not to raid for one or the other reason and then dismiss their opinion because they are not elite enough for you.

I have a lot of raider friends who've been playing the game since early HW and done every single type of content in the game, guess what, people are hyped about what was shown in FanFest because it's finally something new.

[Valence]

It doesnt look like Bard is losing any identity to me.

Where is my RNG and procs? Why do my songs look like SMN? Where are my damage raid buffs?

They have zero idea what they're doing with the rphys role and it's sad. This one is just going to end up butchered like AST because it's the exact same pattern.

[Terhix]

Current PLD even if you want to optimize the FoF window is a completely fixed rotation that you just muscle memory: press atonement, 1, 2, spirit, atonement, atonement, 3, repeat. Double weave oGCDs every 30s, and double weave FoF with imperator every minute. The job has exactly zero skill expression as far as dps is concerned.

Evo PLD showcased in dev panel lost atonement, but gained the counter on sheltron, lost fixed oGCDs in favor of continuation, and Imperator/Blade combo got moved to a gauge with 2 charges so you can actually move it around in rotation for when you lose melee uptime or need healing that the combo provides. It's not a lot, but it's a lot more skill expression than zero.