Evolved Jobs-- Support Tanks?

[Niwurr]

So far with the dev panel I think everything looked really really interesting. I loved the near mini-LB the DPS got to display and I loved the idea of Parrying on Paladin, but I worry for high ping players being barred from even getting those perfect parries-- and on top of that--

the segregation of support and main tanks in a more 'true' sense is rumbling some unrest. I think they really need to show an example of how small the difference is between an "assigned" MT and ST or it'll cause some friction in pfs at least on predominantly english servers that use NA strats and don't already adopt a "support tank" kind of thing.

[StriderShinryu]

Yeah, I do think that having a designated Main Tank and a designated Off Tank could allow for some interesting fight design (and potentially more specialist tank game play moments which tanks have been clamouring for for a long time), but locking the designation by specific job feels like a bad move. It would be better if you could choose or toggle at the start of a duty with the job skills/abilities functioning differently based on what role you choose.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

I feel weird about warrior being an off tank when for so long my static had our warrior as MT. I hope the new tank is fun!

[Evermomo]

I think it's a branding problem. Unlike "pure" and "barrier" healer the mt/ot hierarchy (real or perceived) is not neutral. If the fantasy of "off-tank" is not appealing, war, dark and gnb players are likely to feel like they just got demoted.

Speaking more realistically I don't think it's going to be that much of a problem in gameplay. Fight design this expansion has given both tanks plenty to do. However, a simple rebranding might go farther than even seems reasonable. Call them light and dark tanks, fire and ice tanks, peanut butter and jelly tanks, but if one of them is named "main tank" it feels like the other is named "less/worse" tank.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Dropping my response from the other thread into this one since it's a similar topic.

Having watched the liveletter, I am reserving my full judgment once we learn more about job changes for Reborn & Evolved mode. (I will be referring to jobs as <job>-R and <job>-E for their Reborn and Evolved versions)


MT/OT designation on Job-E Modes may actually just imply that the toolkit for the Evolved mode of that job will be better suited for said role. This means a WAR-E, DRK-E and GNB-E will be better suited for OT tasks, PLD-E and new-E will be better suited for MT tasks, but that does not mean you can't have double MT-E or double OT-E work out and it may very well be fight dependent.


Furthermore, depending on how the general job changes will be coming into Evercold, DRK-R, WAR-R and GNB-R will very likely still be extremely potent main tanks regardless, just like how PLD-R might be an exceptional off-tank. The new tank's kit for potential off-tank duties may also need to be considered.


What we pick as Main Tanks and Off-Tanks could very much boil down to emergence/preference and may likely deviate based on raid culture/planning vs what they "intended" for those designation. After all, we have been doing content with double Barrier healers for some time now. All in all, I do give credit for them to try new things. Feedback of now should be at least considered or looked into, but not be the only relevant factor for future decisions.

[ReynTime]

I don't mind either way but I'll enjoy the salt from viking bearded edgy influencers who main WAR and won't like being pushed into OT against their will.

[squidsplosion]

Maybe I'm being overdramatic.... I think it's also compounded by the fact that they mentioned evolved rotations are supposed to do slightly more damage. So if a tank chose to remain in reborn to have the option to MT, they will have to do less damage in exchange. So it feels like you are a hindrance to your party either way... It really sucks as a WAR main because I felt the main skill expression I had as a WAR MT were in fights with heavy boss movement. Now I will likely be the melee healer, and my cotank who REALLY prefers to OT is forced into MT as a PLD main.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Maybe I'm being overdramatic.... I think it's also compounded by the fact that they mentioned evolved rotations are supposed to do slightly more damage. So if a tank chose to remain in reborn to have the option to MT, they will have to do less damage in exchange. So it feels like you are a hindrance to your party either way... It really sucks as a WAR main because I felt the main skill expression I had as a WAR MT were in fights with heavy boss movement. Now I will likely be the melee healer, and my cotank who REALLY prefers to OT is forced into MT as a PLD main.

Bit of a "wait and see". The damage difference may very much be just within 1-1.5% anyways, which isn't necessarily a big gap anyhow. Maybe different ways of skill expression emerge for R-actions and E-actions and you may be running different modes for different content. WAR-R and WAR-E may both be quite strong in 8.X in their own way, and a WAR-E can still potentially be played like a main tank. I mean, off-tanks had to take enmity from their main tank before and solve busters and MT-relative mechanics as well. I doubt they will make it "that" different.

Not directed at you, but I do want to stress that this is the guy who designed our PvP kits since at minimum Crystalline Conflict era. Considering those kits were quite well received for their conveyance of job identity and power fantasy, I believe it is fair to let him have a proper shot at Evolved action system.

[Zumi]

If I was understanding correctly forced MT and OT only happens in evolved mode. If you play on Reborn mode your tank can do either role.

[Ankhira]

If I was understanding correctly forced MT and OT only happens in evolved mode. If you play on Reborn mode your tank can do either role.

The main pushback I've seen to this is people saying "Well evolved does more damage so why would I play something sub optimal." I think it'll really depend on how much of a difference the DPS difference is and even then, some people will refuse to play something if its even 100 dps less.

Like the WHM bis guide once said double tome is a massive dps gain and I checked and it was like... 60 dps more. Some people just want to output every bit of damage, whether that is the right approach or not is not up to me, but it's something common with MMO's that people will want to optimize their damage above all else.

I don't tank often but I prefer to MT as DRK so I will probably stick to reborn, I do think a lot of parse andies will be complaining regardless even if the solution is right there. And I do get it, but like, I doubt it'll be more than 1-2% dmg difference which wouldn't be that big of a deal.

For me personally fun is more important than getting max dmg but that's just me.