Evolved Jobs-- Support Tanks?

[Niwurr]

So far with the dev panel I think everything looked really really interesting. I loved the near mini-LB the DPS got to display and I loved the idea of Parrying on Paladin, but I worry for high ping players being barred from even getting those perfect parries-- and on top of that--

the segregation of support and main tanks in a more 'true' sense is rumbling some unrest. I think they really need to show an example of how small the difference is between an "assigned" MT and ST or it'll cause some friction in pfs at least on predominantly english servers that use NA strats and don't already adopt a "support tank" kind of thing.

[StriderShinryu]

Yeah, I do think that having a designated Main Tank and a designated Off Tank could allow for some interesting fight design (and potentially more specialist tank game play moments which tanks have been clamouring for for a long time), but locking the designation by specific job feels like a bad move. It would be better if you could choose or toggle at the start of a duty with the job skills/abilities functioning differently based on what role you choose.

[AnotherPerson]

Yeah, I do think that having a designated Main Tank and a designated Off Tank could allow for some interesting fight design (and potentially more specialist tank game play moments which tanks have been clamouring for for a long time), but locking the designation by specific job feels like a bad move. It would be better if you could choose or toggle at the start of a duty with the job skills/abilities functioning differently based on what role you choose.

It might not be a problem if each tank has their own unique gimmick to handling different scenarios of different things that they can specialize in. Sort of like PvP, where each tank is very strong, but strong in very different ways. I wonder how well they will be able to translate the job individuality into PvE though. If people don't like the unique gimmick and prefer a more homogenized form of tanking, they can always switch back to the Reborn style which is still nice for the time being so I think this will let the devs experiment a lot more on job toolkits than usual.

If the DPS gap isn't that big, meta is really subjective as it can only determine how well you can perform with that job's skill expressions or how good it feels in relative comparison. With jobs having more unique individualized skills compared to the Reborn version (like Bard's new dash or DRG's untargetable jump), I think the separation will be interesting to see because DPS could be not the end-all reason for taking a PLD over a GNB for instance in certain parts of a fight (they did say more mechanics happening faster too). With a removal of 2 min rotation timers, DPS might actually take a backseat in favor for more specialized job interactions to emphasize their individual strengths according to the encounter, and those varied job specific interactions might be what makes the encounters feel good over just meta dps options. Plus, it could mean every party composition tackles the fights slightly differently, unless they revert back to the Reborn skill version.

I'm going to wait and see, but still hopeful.

[Chelsei]

Too sad that it won't matter for 95% of the game.

[Zarkovitch]

Brother why? they could just make healer like current tanks in 7.0 not the reverse. Now ive to fight for a war or gbn to off tank, meanwhile pld and new tank got main tank spot for free hell nah man.

[kwassant]

It might not be a problem if each tank has their own unique gimmick to handling different scenarios of different things that they can specialize in.

I don't want my tank (warrior) to end up on the floor if the boss (fatebreaker) rolls his tankbuster high and my cotank forgot to give me his short mit under the pretence that I play a tank (warrior) that is perceived as strong in content where kits don't matter anyway (dungeons) while other tanks don't need the help and will survive the same hit from reasonably to straight up comfortably, it's already a problem and depending on the direction these changes take it's gonna be worse

On top of that the actual numbers and mechanics won't matter if the split is player enforced the same way many parties enforce having two melees to this day when it's a well known fact you not only don't gain anything from having a second one but you might be depriving the party from a better dps that just happens to have more gear / enjoy playing something like BLM more

In addition, if the differences are truly notable we might end up having a disproportionate amount of tanks playing one or the other making PFs hard to fill, it's never fun to wait for over an hour trying to fill a TOP party waiting for a shield healer

If people don't like the unique gimmick and prefer a more homogenized form of tanking, they can always switch back to the Reborn style which is still nice for the time being so I think this will let the devs experiment a lot more on job toolkits than usual.

While that's true for now there's a fair chance that this won't always be the case considering they told us the new jobs wouldn't have those, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect those kits to end up being phased out for the expansion after the next one when they realize maintaining and trying to keep 40+ effective jobs is taking a ton of time that they would probably rather spend elsewhere

[Yuoaman]

If people don't like the unique gimmick and prefer a more homogenized form of tanking, they can always switch back to the Reborn style which is still nice for the time being so I think this will let the devs experiment a lot more on job toolkits than usual.

The issue is with new jobs not getting a Reborn playstyle at all, and the admission that they will be making the Evolved style the more effective one going forward it implies that Reborn combat is likely to be left without meaningful development in the future and will probably be dropped at a later date to simplify development.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

I feel weird about warrior being an off tank when for so long my static had our warrior as MT. I hope the new tank is fun!

[Evermomo]

I think it's a branding problem. Unlike "pure" and "barrier" healer the mt/ot hierarchy (real or perceived) is not neutral. If the fantasy of "off-tank" is not appealing, war, dark and gnb players are likely to feel like they just got demoted.

Speaking more realistically I don't think it's going to be that much of a problem in gameplay. Fight design this expansion has given both tanks plenty to do. However, a simple rebranding might go farther than even seems reasonable. Call them light and dark tanks, fire and ice tanks, peanut butter and jelly tanks, but if one of them is named "main tank" it feels like the other is named "less/worse" tank.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Dropping my response from the other thread into this one since it's a similar topic.

Having watched the liveletter, I am reserving my full judgment once we learn more about job changes for Reborn & Evolved mode. (I will be referring to jobs as <job>-R and <job>-E for their Reborn and Evolved versions)


MT/OT designation on Job-E Modes may actually just imply that the toolkit for the Evolved mode of that job will be better suited for said role. This means a WAR-E, DRK-E and GNB-E will be better suited for OT tasks, PLD-E and new-E will be better suited for MT tasks, but that does not mean you can't have double MT-E or double OT-E work out and it may very well be fight dependent.


Furthermore, depending on how the general job changes will be coming into Evercold, DRK-R, WAR-R and GNB-R will very likely still be extremely potent main tanks regardless, just like how PLD-R might be an exceptional off-tank. The new tank's kit for potential off-tank duties may also need to be considered.


What we pick as Main Tanks and Off-Tanks could very much boil down to emergence/preference and may likely deviate based on raid culture/planning vs what they "intended" for those designation. After all, we have been doing content with double Barrier healers for some time now. All in all, I do give credit for them to try new things. Feedback of now should be at least considered or looked into, but not be the only relevant factor for future decisions.