Idea for TBN

[Sazuzaki]

TBN not breaking IS the punishment. By having something the bypasses that punishment and has another effect, in this case, taking 10% of your HP (or whatever value would be used), you take away from the skill expression of that initial usage, especially if you say that you can immediately negate that punishment via the heal from Carve and Spit and Souleater. Not that you can guarantee them being used close to the usage of 'Blood Price', so it will likely be healed by other means.

I do feel this whole thing is more a way to keep your current rotation rather than being something to 'improve' DRK in some way. All that really has happened here is that you can use TBN, then use Blood Price to forgo any sort of skill expression in using TBN and trying to get it to break.

Which is why I highlighted the minimal gain from that last edge in a burst window. You will generate the same amount of MP in a fight regardless of what you do. You seem to have this fixation that you need that 5th edge in the burst window, likely so you feel better about performing it. However, altering and adjusting your rotation to fit the fight is another way to express that skill. Not using TBN allows extra MP to be utilised elsewhere for minimal loss, for example, having an extra edge or even flood to go after adds.

Definitely not the only reason; I just wish XIV's Dark Knight was more faithful to the series depiction of it rather than trying to purely be functional as a job in an MMO. A 5th edge is just one of the better reasons I can see on why more control over TBN would be a good thing, but you're wrong about that being the prime reason I want to see something like this. I know I brought that up a lot, but that's just one of the better reasons I can see this being added, and something people seemed to gloss over, so I just pointed that out again.

You did point out on if 10% was worth the damage increase from a 5th edge, and now you're also saying that it forgoes any skill expression. The idea is that TBN stays the same, and you SHOULD be trying to pop it naturally with damage, but it gives the player more control on what they want to do. Is it worth sacrificing HP to not cook your burst? Are you going to take more auto damage after you proc it? The HP sac is just a factor that can be changed depending on how punishing the want it to be if it doesn't break, and to keep the idea that TBN is a punishing skill while making it less dependent on variables that are outside your control. Also, I want to clarify savage is not the only content I want to focus on, I'm talking about casual content too. You use TBN and the WHM starts using Holy? Tough luck I guess. Sure I can coordinate, but how many randoms do you really think are going to care enough to do that? This can also be applied to healer mitigation which ALSO leads to TBN not breaking. You catch my drift?

Yeah TBN not breaking is the punishment, and to be honest, I wouldn't care that much if TBN stayed the same. My suggestion is here mainly for thinking of ways to reduce TBNs jank (like it punishing you for gearing up, the WHM stunlock, many that are already common knowledge) and adding a way XIV's DRK could have HP sac, but HP sac does come with the con of that being someone else's problem rather than yours. However, I do wish people were more open-minded to the idea of HP sac because there are certainly ways to include such a feature without it being obnoxious.

[Mikey_R]

Yeah TBN not breaking is the punishment, and to be honest, I wouldn't care that much if TBN stayed the same. My suggestion is here mainly for thinking of ways to reduce TBNs jank (like it punishing you for gearing up, the WHM stunlock, many that are already common knowledge) and adding a way XIV's DRK could have HP sac, but HP sac does come with the con of that being someone else's problem rather than yours. However, I do wish people were more open-minded to the idea of HP sac because there are certainly ways to include such a feature without it being obnoxious.

I think this is going to be a agree to disagree situation, however:

-TBN not breaking is the punishment, adding blood price negates that punishment (as you will always use it, even if it is at 1 second left of TBN). This essentially makes the skill use 3000 MP for a shield, if it doesn't break, you lose 10% HP, as opposed to lose an edge/flood. The punishment is far less so you don't need to plan the TBN at all as you know you can pop it at any time.
-As for WHM in trash packs, why are you using TBN when the WHM has started to use Holy? 99% of WHMs are going to use Holy at the start of a trash pull, so it is then the skill of the DRK to not use TBN in that window.

(This applies to Carighan as well) The devs didn't want DRK to sacrifice HP, this is a consistent thing since DRK's release in HW, so, instead, they made them sacrifice MP, with the DRK's MP economy being entirely managed by the DRK themselves and that was their compromise.

I have made many posts in the past about HP sac and as a short summary, if the DRK could recover HP in some way, it would either be too much healing or too little, too much invalidates the healer, too little gives healers extra to heal. There is also the frequency at which you can sacrifice HP as well as how much you sacrifice. Too often, you run the risk of not having enough HP to survive mechanics (at which point it is the healer's fault for not healing enough) or too little and it is inconsequential that you don't have to work around it at all. There is also gear differences as well as a slew of other factors. This might again be an agree to disagree situation, but that is a short summary of my thoughts.

[Sazuzaki]

-As for WHM in trash packs, why are you using TBN when the WHM has started to use Holy? 99% of WHMs are going to use Holy at the start of a trash pull, so it is then the skill of the DRK to not use TBN in that window.

I think you missed my point. The point was DRK needlessly clashes with the design of WHM, and I simply am speculating ways that the inherent flaws of TBN could be mitigated without sacrificing identity. But to touch on that, I think it's a little disingenuous to say that 99% of White Mages do that especially in an MMO setting where player habits differ. At level 100, WHM has a 2-min burst that replaces Holy during AOE situations, and it doesn't stun. So that begs the question: is the WHM going to start the pack with their 2 min? Are they going to hold a few GCDs with Holy before they 2 min? What if they wait for me to TBN, and I wait for them to Holy? Are they gonna wait to Holy so they can stun the mob AOE spam? All of this has happened to me, and it happens pretty often. There's no real point in trying to coordinate in the easiest content in the game with every single party I queue into, but it's also annoying when that happens. Also, you didn't really touch on the fact that external mitigation can just straight up prevent TBN from breaking. For example, I TBN some SAM who just got hit by an AOE and a raid wide is about to kill them. The WHM applies Benison, they use third eye, and I use reprisal. BAM TBN doesn't break because we all mit too much to save the guys life... Yet I got punished for literally doing my job. There's factors that are out of my control and I can't exactly predict because again player habits differ.

We definitely both have stubborn views and aren't going to change each other's minds, but I appreciate the discussion nonetheless. Every opinion/idea should be counteracted by an opposite. But I also think we shouldn't be so quick to disagree. I agree with you on the fact that 90% of DRK's would abuse that as a way to make up for their lack of skill on TBN. But I think it may be a little overblown because sacrificing HP as a tank is kind of a big deal, which is why I think it's a fitting punishment for failing to break TBN. Hell if I were designing the skill, that shit would be 25% of your HP rather than just 10% because as I said, that could just be recovered with a CnS/Souleater. It's not like it would be out of character for DRK either because Living Dead exists. With all that being said, it's not like any of this would ever actually be implemented, but it's fun to imagine possibilities.

[Mikey_R]

I think you missed my point. The point was DRK needlessly clashes with the design of WHM, and I simply am speculating ways that the inherent flaws of TBN could be mitigated without sacrificing identity. But to touch on that, I think it's a little disingenuous to say that 99% of White Mages do that especially in an MMO setting where player habits differ. ....

There is an argument to be made that at that point, we are trying to optimise dungeon runs with random people and ultimately, it doesn't matter. You cannot predict anything at that point just try and adapt on the fly, sometimes you get it right, sometimes you get it wrong, all that matters is the dungeon is completed.

Also, you didn't really touch on the fact that external mitigation can just straight up prevent TBN from breaking. For example, I TBN some SAM who just got hit by an AOE and a raid wide is about to kill them. The WHM applies Benison, they use third eye, and I use reprisal. BAM TBN doesn't break because we all mit too much to save the guys life... Yet I got punished for literally doing my job. There's factors that are out of my control and I can't exactly predict because again player habits differ.

First thing, a dead Samurai is going to cost more damage than losing out on a Flood/Edge. Second, with shields, the one with the shortest duration takes priority, in this case, TBN's mitigation would be used up before Benison. But this is a specific scenario where we don't even know if the damage would kill the Samurai, would TBN be too much?, would an Oblation have been fine? Did they even need extra mitigation in the first place? etc. It is again a situation that you cannot optimise. (However, just to bring this back to your OP, at great power [allowing the SAM to live] at a cost [a use of flood/edge] is, in your words, the identity of DRK).

We definitely both have stubborn views and aren't going to change each other's minds, but I appreciate the discussion nonetheless. Every opinion/idea should be counteracted by an opposite. But I also think we shouldn't be so quick to disagree.

It is refreshing to see someone who actually wants to have these discussions. However, I do still stand by the fact that HP sacrifice shouldn't be used in the pursuit of more damage. In the case of Living Dead, you don't sacrifice your own HP, the initial part is just Holmgang after all and I don't think anyone is going to claim Holmgang is a HP sacrifice. Living Dead then allows you to heal up the HP once you have 'died'. The difference to a HP sacrifice then is that you can die before you get healed, there is no safety net and again, you cannot guarantee a Souleater or Carve and Spit coming soon after the HP sacrifice, so they aren't reliable and a healer is likely going to heal it up before then.

[Sazuzaki]

Second, with shields, the one with the shortest duration takes priority, in this case, TBN's mitigation would be used up before Benison.

My mistake, I meant to say Aquaveil which has been quite the nuisance in the past. Sure no one cares about optimizing a dungeon, but the general flow of a job is extremely important and sadly for DRK there are are lot of annoying factors that can really hurt its flow of TBN.