Idea for TBN

[Sazuzaki]

I've thought about this a little, and thought it would be a decent way to add some HP sacrifice to DRK while tackling the issue of TBN being annoying to break.

If you use TBN, it changes into another ability, let's just say Blood Price. Blood Price can be used to sacrifice 10% of your HP to break TBN's shield and grant you dark arts. This gives the player an option if they accidentally use TBN at the wrong time; either sacrifice 10% of your HP to not lose DPS, or if things are dire enough, just accept the DPS loss.

I think this could actually make DRK perform better in casual content. For example, I can't fit 5 edges into raid buff windows because I can't consistently pop TBN unless there's a well timed raid wide or tank buster. With this new TBN, I just HP sac to be able to fit that 5th edge of shadow. Yea yea, optimizing for casual content but what other fun is there to be had in that type of content. If anything, it brings more identity into casual DRK.

Maybe this could result in PF being terrorized by shitty DRK main tanks constantly taking extra damage, but I argue that's the core identity of DRK; great power at a cost. But a good DRK knows when to control themselves and accept the loss (or just get gud and break your TBNs properly). Nevertheless, designing jobs around bad players has already proven itself to be kind of shitty.

[Derio]

Or they can simply just change it to where if TBN absorbs 75% of the damage you still get the proc.

[Chajii]

To be honest, in many situations TBN just needs a slightly longer duration for it to break

[Sazuzaki]

I appreciate your ideas too, but I feel like you guys missed the part of the post where I mention the 5 edge tech is locked behind the fight design itself, unless you want to stand in AOEs and get possible damage downs. I'm thinking of the M9S Coffinkiller, where you NEED to avoid AOEs to avoid damage down and buffing the boss, and there's very rarely a chance where you can actually use TBN there since it's all avoidable damage. Yeah you could extend the duration, but that's just a bandaid fix and still leaves TBN outside the players control. The idea for something like this is for TBN to remain in the players control, while also adding some needed identity to DRK. But every idea has its flaws.

[Mikey_R]

Using the Edge outside of the buff window as opposed to inside the buff window is ~1% increase in the total potency in just those 20 seconds. If you take it over the full 2 minutes, the total potency gained is going to be far lower. Is it really worth sacrificing 10% of your HP for a <1% increase in damage every 2 minutes?

For an instance where the Dark Arts is used out outside the buff window, if TBN doesn't break, it was a bad use for TBN and you should have used something else instead. Learning point for next time.

I think you have put way too much emphasis on the potency lost by losing 1 Edge of Shadow in a burst window as opposed to it falling outside the window.

[Sazuzaki]

Is it really worth sacrificing 10% of your HP for a <1% increase in damage every 2 minutes?

Yes, because a well timed Carve and Spit/Souleater can recover at least half of that, all of it if the cure crits. And it's not just about the 5th edge, it's also about those cases where it only just barely makes it to breaking, openers where it's optimal for TBN to break for the first two auto attacks (which 2 fights in this tier lack), etc. You could offer the same solution as the others above, but by doing so you kind of lessen the identity of TBN being a punishing skill that takes mastery, and don't address the lack of player control. Not to say their ideas are bad, I just think there's better and more creative ways to tackle this that are faithful to DRK's lore.

My mistake for seeming like I put a lot of emphasis on the 5th edge, but what I'm looking for is just more control over TBN. Yeah, if TBN doesn't break it's obvious you should use it elsewhere, but you're forgetting the fact that TBN will stop breaking in places it normally would because it inherently punishes you for gearing up. Better gear = more hp/defense = harder for shields to break. The idea behind the HP sac is to keep the punishment behind the misuse of TBN, but in a less obnoxious way.

If 10% is too much, what you could do is make the HP consumption scale with the amount of shield left. 100% of the shield = 10% HP sac, <50% = 5% hp sac, etc.

[Mikey_R]

but by doing so you kind of lessen the identity of TBN being a punishing skill that takes mastery, and don't address the lack of player control. Not to say their ideas are bad, I just think there's better and more creative ways to tackle this that are faithful to DRK's lore.

TBN not breaking IS the punishment. By having something the bypasses that punishment and has another effect, in this case, taking 10% of your HP (or whatever value would be used), you take away from the skill expression of that initial usage, especially if you say that you can immediately negate that punishment via the heal from Carve and Spit and Souleater. Not that you can guarantee them being used close to the usage of 'Blood Price', so it will likely be healed by other means.

I do feel this whole thing is more a way to keep your current rotation rather than being something to 'improve' DRK in some way. All that really has happened here is that you can use TBN, then use Blood Price to forgo any sort of skill expression in using TBN and trying to get it to break.

Which is why I highlighted the minimal gain from that last edge in a burst window. You will generate the same amount of MP in a fight regardless of what you do. You seem to have this fixation that you need that 5th edge in the burst window, likely so you feel better about performing it. However, altering and adjusting your rotation to fit the fight is another way to express that skill. Not using TBN allows extra MP to be utilised elsewhere for minimal loss, for example, having an extra edge or even flood to go after adds.

[Carighan]

I appreciate your ideas too, but I feel like you guys missed the part of the post where I mention the 5 edge tech is locked behind the fight design itself, unless you want to stand in AOEs and get possible damage downs. I'm thinking of the M9S Coffinkiller, where you NEED to avoid AOEs to avoid damage down and buffing the boss, and there's very rarely a chance where you can actually use TBN there since it's all avoidable damage. Yeah you could extend the duration, but that's just a bandaid fix and still leaves TBN outside the players control. The idea for something like this is for TBN to remain in the players control, while also adding some needed identity to DRK. But every idea has its flaws.

Eh she deals enough autoattack damage, just let her hit you twice.

Although I don't feel comfortable with tools such as TBN in a damage-centric tank-design game like FFXIV, anyways. I wish there was another defensive use locked behind it instead.

[Sazuzaki]

TBN not breaking IS the punishment. By having something the bypasses that punishment and has another effect, in this case, taking 10% of your HP (or whatever value would be used), you take away from the skill expression of that initial usage, especially if you say that you can immediately negate that punishment via the heal from Carve and Spit and Souleater. Not that you can guarantee them being used close to the usage of 'Blood Price', so it will likely be healed by other means.

I do feel this whole thing is more a way to keep your current rotation rather than being something to 'improve' DRK in some way. All that really has happened here is that you can use TBN, then use Blood Price to forgo any sort of skill expression in using TBN and trying to get it to break.

Which is why I highlighted the minimal gain from that last edge in a burst window. You will generate the same amount of MP in a fight regardless of what you do. You seem to have this fixation that you need that 5th edge in the burst window, likely so you feel better about performing it. However, altering and adjusting your rotation to fit the fight is another way to express that skill. Not using TBN allows extra MP to be utilised elsewhere for minimal loss, for example, having an extra edge or even flood to go after adds.

Definitely not the only reason; I just wish XIV's Dark Knight was more faithful to the series depiction of it rather than trying to purely be functional as a job in an MMO. A 5th edge is just one of the better reasons I can see on why more control over TBN would be a good thing, but you're wrong about that being the prime reason I want to see something like this. I know I brought that up a lot, but that's just one of the better reasons I can see this being added, and something people seemed to gloss over, so I just pointed that out again.

You did point out on if 10% was worth the damage increase from a 5th edge, and now you're also saying that it forgoes any skill expression. The idea is that TBN stays the same, and you SHOULD be trying to pop it naturally with damage, but it gives the player more control on what they want to do. Is it worth sacrificing HP to not cook your burst? Are you going to take more auto damage after you proc it? The HP sac is just a factor that can be changed depending on how punishing the want it to be if it doesn't break, and to keep the idea that TBN is a punishing skill while making it less dependent on variables that are outside your control. Also, I want to clarify savage is not the only content I want to focus on, I'm talking about casual content too. You use TBN and the WHM starts using Holy? Tough luck I guess. Sure I can coordinate, but how many randoms do you really think are going to care enough to do that? This can also be applied to healer mitigation which ALSO leads to TBN not breaking. You catch my drift?

Yeah TBN not breaking is the punishment, and to be honest, I wouldn't care that much if TBN stayed the same. My suggestion is here mainly for thinking of ways to reduce TBNs jank (like it punishing you for gearing up, the WHM stunlock, many that are already common knowledge) and adding a way XIV's DRK could have HP sac, but HP sac does come with the con of that being someone else's problem rather than yours. However, I do wish people were more open-minded to the idea of HP sac because there are certainly ways to include such a feature without it being obnoxious.

[Carighan]

Yeah true and the only consistent thing FF versions have shown is sacrificing HP, usually for extra damage. Beyond that Dark Knight has always been pretty variable.