On the subject of Melee/Tank Gap closers

[Rithy255]

Here's the actual truth

Some Gap closers should deal damage, having a damage gap closer adds a small amount of optimisation and skill expression and fight knowledge. Also jobs like PLD/WAR need stuff to weave compared to gnb/drk which are busy
Some Gap closers Shouldn't deal damage, I'd prefer gap closers like these also have ally application where you can go to a ally
Some Gap closers shouldn't be target based, aka white mage dancer picto closers.

Why should gap closers be different? because it gives some sense of uniqueness of course I dislike the blanket statement that gap closers should be designed one way or another.

[Aidorouge]

Spineshatter Dive got replaced with a dumb little slide across the ground because someone on the job design team thought somebody said worm instead of wyrm.

I hate how much goddamn sense this makes.

Anyway, I'm fine with no damage on gap closers, since it rarely made any difference anyway and there's better ways to do damage. I just bloody hate how we lost the better looking animations.

if (animation fidelity) is a concern, then they can change Plunge/Rough Divide animation a little by making it hit with the flat side of the blade, and if needed, add a status effect instead of damage (Stun, Paralysis or Pacification)

THIS.

If the excuse was going to be "well, it would look dumb if you were Plunging your sword into someone and didn't do damage" I would instead argue that maybe the gap closer could just give resources/inflict status effects/reduce defensive cooldowns instead with zero damage.

I would not shed any tears if Shield Bash got merged into Intervene and stole the Stun like it already does in PVP (just remove the damage). Give me some Oath Gauge while they're at it.

DRK still has Plunge in PVP too, where I'm certain they can retool "reduces target's HP recovered by healing actions by 15% and if that target should be KO'd in battle before Sole Survivor expires, your HP and MP will be restored by 15%, and the recast time of Plunge will be reset" into something interesting that functions against mobs instead of other players even if its just a basic bitch MP restore skill or procs The Blackest Night's effect on demand/early to ensure Dark Arts. Just, anything on gap closers but direct damage.

[Shurrikhan]

The main difference is just button density. If you want X apm regardless of situation, damaging gap-closers is better. Any time they'd be useful for gap-closing, they're going to be held for gap-closing anyways, because even a quarter of a GCD so overwhelms the bonus of dropping them under raid buffs. (At most, you'd just make Rough Divide and Intervene always benefit from No Mercy and Fight or Flight, respectively, so they needn't be held for those far larger modifiers.)

If you never want to ever have to think about a mechanic before it's knocked you back or provided something at distance to gap-close to, though, then you could happily devote to that purpose an extra button that'd otherwise be absolutely useless. Same goes for silences and stuns in any content for which the silence or stun would actually be worth much (i.e., if you just un-neuter mobs' casts and wound-up special attacks).

[JadeCurtiss]

I would honestly prefer the gap closers had no damage. I play PLD and as it stands I need to use gap closers during my burst in raid content, which means I can rarely use them for utility otherwise I lose damage. Is that homogenizing? Probably, but not everything has to be unique or different. Gaps closers should be for closing gaps.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

The main difference is just button density. If you want X apm regardless of situation, damaging gap-closers is better. Any time they'd be useful for gap-closing, they're going to be held for gap-closing anyways, because even a quarter of a GCD so overwhelms the bonus of dropping them under raid buffs. (At most, you'd just make Rough Divide and Intervene always benefit from No Mercy and Fight or Flight, respectively, so they needn't be held for those far larger modifiers.)[…]

*raises hand* Question! I’m not a math whizz so pardon the math mistakes: Mathematically speaking, how much is the gain to perform these ‘dump gapclosers in raidbuff windows’ these days? Last time I look up any magic numbers was in EW (Idk DT numbers), and I vaguely recall the damage spike occurring in 2m burst windows are anywhere around 30% to 45% from normal values. Does this means—taking a WAR as an example case—it essentially only translates to 90p to 135p’ish gains every two minutes?

[Carstien]

I would honestly prefer the gap closers had no damage. I play PLD and as it stands I need to use gap closers during my burst in raid content, which means I can rarely use them for utility otherwise I lose damage. Is that homogenizing? Probably, but not everything has to be unique or different. Gaps closers should be for closing gaps.

I agree with you, they would be better doing no damage and moving the damage to the other ogcd's imo, but...you do know you can save them instead of blowing them in your burst, right? If you have movement coming up, you will get more damage holding it and not missing half a GCD than you would throwing the weak gap closer into buffs. You do have that option.

[Shurrikhan]

*raises hand* Question! I’m not a math whizz so pardon the math mistakes: Mathematically speaking, how much is the gain to perform these ‘dump gapclosers in raidbuff windows’ these days? Last time I look up any magic numbers was in EW (Idk DT numbers), and I vaguely recall the damage spike occurring in 2m burst windows are anywhere around 30% to 45% from normal values. Does this means—taking a WAR as an example case—it essentially only translates to 90p to 135p’ish gains every two minutes?

From the raid buffs themselves, you have at most (short of ST buffs, since those will never be on a tank anyways) 5% from BV, 5% from Mug, ~5% from BL, and 5% from BH, 6% from Divination, and 5% from Chain Stratagem. That's 28.8% overall. Which, on a 200p skill like Onslaught, is... 43 potency. It costs only 43 potency to never lose access to a gap-closer.

Tanks push 400+ effective potency per GCD when accounting for gauge and its tack on effects, so the chances of raid buffs providing more benefit than the actual gap-closing is... extremely slim on any gap worth calling a gap. Having multiple charges is already plenty to ensure that even a damaging gap-closer can remain primarily interested in closing-gaps without requiring too much thought (just not necessarily none).