In 12 years the game hasn't innovated

[Shurrikhan]

In an abstract sense, but it's still an answer to your question, the less it looks like everything around it, the more innovate it is.

Isn't the whole idea of innovation to build off of what was there before. It's both etymologically and per common use "to make the old (feel) new", after all. Wholesale unrelated new ideas would not therefore typically be "innovative", merely "novel", no?

I guess I have to wonder then whether some of the complaints here are from simply asking for a thing that would not be implied by the title given?

it's important when you consider how deeply systemic the problems might be, if a cornerstone and interwoven theme of your production process is "how can we optimise this to minimise the development input, and reuse and reprocess the results".

It is, sure; you don't want everything to feel the same in the process of maximizing the hours worth of enjoyable experiences per development hour spent.

But we shouldn't expect something entirely new from innovation, right? Only that it should feel an experience or piece of content born of innovation would 'feel' newer than we'd expect from the amount of unique development time put into it.

Less abstractly?
It could look like:
- we have a massive problem with the total disconnect between the casual gameplay and the high end game. So we are going to tear down the high end game, rebuild casual game, and rebuild the challenging game as a progression from there. Casual first with challanging as a holistic extension from there. As opposed to the current high end first, with casual as a gutted after thought of that game, just because balancing is easier if you just focus on balancing high end, develop your high end then just give that a cheap shave to deliver some casual.
- An island sanctuary with large-scale planning it even landscaping, which is unlike the small scale cookie cutter estate gardens.
- using reward systems to really incentivise progress and not just toxic optimal farming and clears
- using reward systems to really incentivise duty finder over and above partyfinder to make that content more conveniently accessible.

I guess my question for this and any similar example would be where does this show effective innovation rather than just more development time having been thrown at a given thing? (Granted, if there's reuse of the additional systems born of that extra effort in the given content later into other contents or content forms later, that could still produce about the same positive outcomes.)

I'll skip the first and last since I'm not sure we actually have any evidence on either among casual content being an afterthought slice of the "real" Savage content or that it'd be any worse for being so even if that were true, nor that there's reason to incentivize Duty Finder "over and above" Party Finder, especially in an MMORPG of all things, but the island sanctuary example seems more a matter of just "if you're going to bother with all the art and UI assets required, at least go deep enough for some longevity", and progress over "toxic optimal farming and clears" seems mostly a matter of rewards-balancing.

Though, I guess we could also look at perhaps breaking fights up into a larger number of "Phases" and provide first-time partial-clear bonuses for those who get to a further Phase than before, or maybe even repeated but increasingly diminished bonuses after the first based on overall party progress / regularity. It'd use the systems we already have, just in more detail, and could in turn reduce party (social) conflicts.

What innovation can't look like:
- innovation can't ever look like backdating removing innovation, by homogenising old content to fit the mould of solo Trust content.
- innovation can't 'look' like backdating removing job innovation by homogenising job design and function to make balancing high end easier.
- innovation can't 'look' like recycling a 3x3 dungeon formula packages because it enables you to recycle a production spreadsheet.
- innovation can't look like new challenging content 24 man content that follows the same tired formula of relentless personal responsibility and stand in the right place at the right time *ahead of time* 'perfection', such as already used by savage, and that breeds all the same old culture of high-end PF exclusion, and reliance on out of game guides and study.

Agreed, but I also don't think anyone would ever disagree, even if one might argue that there were some interesting reuses or upgrades or rehauls to certain mechanics among those larger systemic homogeneities.

[Mikey_R]

You seem to assume that I work for SE as a gameplay dev, which I do not. This is feedback from one player in the community, not a professional gameplay dev.

Would you want me to work on a multipage long full game design document with detailed features and gameplay bricks so it can directly be forwarded to the programmers immediately? I do not recall making this thread to humour your gamedesign fantasies, but point out that the game doesn't like very much to create brand new features, but perhaps we moved the goalposts so far that we're already on the moon or what?

The absolute irony in your reply is that someone should really hand you a mirror because all I've ever seen you do on those forums is take the actually constructive threads people make, however clumsy as some may be, and spend your time criticizing them to death. That's literally all you do, without offering any solutions.

Never said you had to make a multi page design document just to say what you would like added. Just simple ideas to form a backbone of something would do. For example, adding a daily/weekly quest into the exploration zones to kill a certain amount of X/Y/Z enemy to get rewards. However, I guess that would be too close to hunt marks in every expansion area where you go to a bill board and get the hunt marks.

However, the whole point of my post was to point out that if you think you are constructively criticizing (or providing constructive contributions), you are not. That vast majority of what you say is just criticism, it is only when you provide feedback into what you want to see improved and how it might be done, can you then say you are providing constructive criticism.

To give you an analogy, if you were to hand in a paper to a teacher/professor, and they turned around and said it was bad, redo it. That isn't helpful. However, if they said it was bad, but then explained how it could be improved, that is then the constructive part.

As for the irony in the last sentence, I quite literally constructively criticised your post as I explained why what you said wasn't constructive criticism, which, I believe, is the biggest irony here.

As for criticizing constructive threads, of course I am going to have an input if it is a topic I care about. I am putting my opinions out there and explaining why I think how I do, I might suggest improvements, I might say I don't think it is a viable idea, but they are always backed up with why I think that way.

So again, what would you like to see in exploration content that would come across as new and not just rehashing old content (apparently ignoring the elemental wheel, logos actions, lost actions, phantom jobs etc.). How would you change the content of Cosmic Exploration/Firmament to make it so that it isn't just 'crafting/gathering leves or collectables'. Lets have your ideas. You yourself say you want the game to improve, but you don't seem to want to put in the effort to provide ideas to the dev team in order to do so. Who knows, an idea might pick up traction and it gets implemented on the next iteration. There is plenty of time before the next exploration zone in the next expansion (if they are going to do one) and if the idea is simple enough, it might even make it into North Horn, though that is unlikely.

The whole point is, rather than just go on a doom and gloom posting spree, why not actually provide the feedback the devs want. What are you looking for and why.

[Kaurhz]

The whole point is, rather than just go on a doom and gloom posting spree, why not actually provide the feedback the devs want. What are you looking for and why.

Perhaps because for the most part they feel like it is speaking to a brick wall.

Like, people HATED the BA way of queueing up to the large scale... What did they do? Solve it with Delubrum where it's a normal instanced duty... What did they do after that? Repeat the exact same mistake as what they did 7 years ago...

The reality is, that they ask us to put feedback on here, then they routinely ignore it or don't actually engage with it at all, then we have people, like yourself wondering why people are not being more constructive with their discussion... Beyond a certain point it is quite literally just a brick wall situation.

It's funny that some people spend so much time completely blaming the player, as if this problem would be even half as bad as it currently is if they actually elected to engage with the feedback properly beyond just platitudes.

[Valence]

If you want to suggest some innovative ideas that will make this game different and not just a copy of MMOs you can already play then I will happily encourage it as I have other nice ideas people have had.
Sadly through all the posts you've made this doesn't seem to be something you nor Gurgeh are capable of.

I actually made some. Notably one on itemization with some inspiration from the diadem, also indulged at some point in the past in trying to offer a couple of ideas for what certain jobs like RDM could play like in threads about job identity.
I have also suggested a lot of changes and adjustment notably on the MCH job over the years, of which a lot were shared by the community as a whole, and some were brand new ideas of my own.
I do think I have been rather prolific and constructive on what should be changed, improved, or made better in the pvp sub section as well (and not just on job balance, for example UI, etc).
I just made two days ago another thread in this very general discussion on how I'd improve on the dronebits feature from CE.

If you mean absolutely brand new features as described in the OP I'd like seeing, I'm ready to hear your ideas so we can discuss it and bounce over it then. Usually when I do suggest something like this, the immediate reply is "you're just trying to make the game into something it isn't". Heads I win, tails I lose kind of community.

You also specified different and not just a "copy" of MMOs we can already play, may I ask what it entails? Does it include inspiration? Because if so I'm afraid that if you think that creation comes out of thin air, you'd be very naive to think so.

i disagree, they have done a lot of innovative things to the game.

I think you're getting mixed up with innovation and enjoyment.

And I think you didn't understand the slightest bit of what the OP actually describes yourself. Else please give me counter examples to back up your point.

Never said you had to make a multi page design document just to say what you would like added. Just simple ideas to form a backbone of something would do. For example, adding a daily/weekly quest into the exploration zones to kill a certain amount of X/Y/Z enemy to get rewards. However, I guess that would be too close to hunt marks in every expansion area where you go to a bill board and get the hunt marks.

However, the whole point of my post was to point out that if you think you are constructively criticizing (or providing constructive contributions), you are not. That vast majority of what you say is just criticism, it is only when you provide feedback into what you want to see improved and how it might be done, can you then say you are providing constructive criticism.

To give you an analogy, if you were to hand in a paper to a teacher/professor, and they turned around and said it was bad, redo it. That isn't helpful. However, if they said it was bad, but then explained how it could be improved, that is then the constructive part.

As for the irony in the last sentence, I quite literally constructively criticised your post as I explained why what you said wasn't constructive criticism, which, I believe, is the biggest irony here.

As for criticizing constructive threads, of course I am going to have an input if it is a topic I care about. I am putting my opinions out there and explaining why I think how I do, I might suggest improvements, I might say I don't think it is a viable idea, but they are always backed up with why I think that way.

So again, what would you like to see in exploration content that would come across as new and not just rehashing old content (apparently ignoring the elemental wheel, logos actions, lost actions, phantom jobs etc.). How would you change the content of Cosmic Exploration/Firmament to make it so that it isn't just 'crafting/gathering leves or collectables'. Lets have your ideas. You yourself say you want the game to improve, but you don't seem to want to put in the effort to provide ideas to the dev team in order to do so. Who knows, an idea might pick up traction and it gets implemented on the next iteration. There is plenty of time before the next exploration zone in the next expansion (if they are going to do one) and if the idea is simple enough, it might even make it into North Horn, though that is unlikely.

The whole point is, rather than just go on a doom and gloom posting spree, why not actually provide the feedback the devs want. What are you looking for and why.

I really don't understand how everything you said here even applies to that thread in particular. If you want me to give ideas on what to improve on specific features or types of content, I have made plenty of threads that definitely fall into your definition of constructive criticism. Take that other thread on texture tiling in the general subsection as well, are you taking issue too because they're not providing solutions to the devs how to fix the issue (which I actually did in my reply there)?
Likewise, this thread ain't about that.

Besides this, as said above, I'm not paid to do the devs' work for them. As you said, the devs are after feedback, which doesn't mean design solutions.

Like both you and Hydralus above, I'm afraid you're just cherry picking what you want to read or see and what you don't really.

[ovIm]

Perhaps because for the most part they feel like it is speaking to a brick wall.

...

It's funny that some people spend so much time completely blaming the player, as if this problem would be even half as bad as it currently is if they actually elected to engage with the feedback properly beyond just platitudes.

Fully agree. The forums feel more like a void to yell into, with how much stuff from here gets blatantly ignored. Not just odd takes mind you, some good and genuine well meant criticism is often swept aside. (semi related, any one remember the reaction to the feedback from the White Mage Gauge back during its conception?)

Plus I'd argue that it is not the place of the customer to always provide constructive criticism. We are customers of a product. If a group loudly enough yells "we are dissatisfied", and the game developers really want to know why, they can send out feedback questionnaires en masse to paint themselves a more objective and streamlined picture without sifting through loads and loads of text. They could also just properly design the exit survey for when people do quit to properly understand why they do instead of assuming its because players don't have enough time to play anymore.

ETA: like, I really don't want to sound so negative all the time, and I truly hope the devs find a better way for us players to convey our feelings and our feedback for this game that is not "write in this forum and hope someone reads what you have written."

[Kaurhz]

Fully agree. The forums feel more like a void to yell into, with how much stuff from here gets blatantly ignored. Not just odd takes mind you, some good and genuine well meant criticism is often swept aside. (semi related, any one remember the reaction to the feedback from the White Mage Gauge back during its conception?)

Plus I'd argue that it is not the place of the customer to always provide constructive criticism. We are customers of a product. If a group loudly enough yells "we are dissatisfied", and the game developers really want to know why, they can send out feedback questionnaires en masse to paint themselves a more objective and streamlined picture without sifting through loads and loads of text. They could also just properly design the exit survey for when people do quit to properly understand why they do instead of assuming its because players don't have enough time to play anymore.

ETA: like, I really don't want to sound so negative all the time, and I truly hope the devs find a better way for us players to convey our feelings and our feedback for this game that is not "write in this forum and hope someone reads what you have written."

Agreed.. I have partly given up trying to give criticism.. These days I will just debate more than anything, as I don't really think anything will change.

I think a lot of the feedback is more constructive than some posters would like to admit... Perhaps a bit of tone policing.. But like, even if I find Valence's post a bit dramatic in terms of innovation... There's a lot you can infer from it (e.g., perhaps we should actually look at updating hunts/FATEs etc., -- Sure some are unique, but at the core they have gone unchanged since the games inception).

Tone aside, if someone handed this to me I would have a bit to work with... It's really up to the developers to determine what to infer from the feedback.

I don't think we need a better way to convey our feelings.. I just think there needs to be more engagement generally from the developer side, they can change it in 327427361 different ways... But if it's just a different platform etc., then as long as the engagement isn't there, it will just be same result, different method.

[Xieldras]

Agreed.. I have partly given up trying to give criticism.. These days I will just debate more than anything, as I don't really think anything will change.

I think a lot of the feedback is more constructive than some posters would like to admit... Perhaps a bit of tone policing.. But like, even if I find Valence's post a bit dramatic in terms of innovation... There's a lot you can infer from it (e.g., perhaps we should actually look at updating hunts/FATEs etc., -- Sure some are unique, but at the core they have gone unchanged since the games inception).

Tone aside, if someone handed this to me I would have a bit to work with... It's really up to the developers to determine what to infer from the feedback.

I don't think we need a better way to convey our feelings.. I just think there needs to be more engagement generally from the developer side, they can change it in 327427361 different ways... But if it's just a different platform etc., then as long as the engagement isn't there, it will just be same result, different method.

There is no exit survey either, so the truly only way to give feedback about the game is either on the official forums (where it is ignored and sometimes torn to shreds by other players) or on social media. We do not even get acknowledgement about what is being posted within the forums by the GMs. Is it even sent to the Dev team? General sentiment leans to no.

[honest_psycho]

To give my 2 cents:

- I want bosses (dungeons/raids) to do something else, ANYTHING ELSE than just an utterly boring raid-wide attack.
It's so insulting to my intelligence, especially as a healer, that I am not trusted with more complex mechanics.

Just do one of these to shake up the formula:
- let the simple AoE leave a DoT,
- let the boss pick one player who gets massive damage,
- let the aoe leave some nasty debuffs.


Also, innovate the dungeons already.
- 2 groups - Boss - 2 groups - boss - 2 groups - final boss is soul-crushingly boring.

Give us new mechanics like Doomtrain with changing layers, or more adds.

PLEASE TRY SOMETHING ELSE

[Reginald_Cain]

To give my 2 cents:

- I want bosses (dungeons/raids) to do something else, ANYTHING ELSE than just an utterly boring raid-wide attack.
It's so insulting to my intelligence, especially as a healer, that I am not trusted with more complex mechanics.

Just do one of these to shake up the formula:
- let the simple AoE leave a DoT,
- let the boss pick one player who gets massive damage,
- let the aoe leave some nasty debuffs.


Also, innovate the dungeons already.
- 2 groups - Boss - 2 groups - boss - 2 groups - final boss is soul-crushingly boring.

Give us new mechanics like Doomtrain with changing layers, or more adds.

PLEASE TRY SOMETHING ELSE

Having dungeons with double bosses like arcadion m10 or eden 6 would be cool too.

[Shurrikhan]

[

To give you an analogy, if you were to hand in a paper to a teacher/professor, and they turned around and said it was bad, redo it. That isn't helpful. However, if they said it was bad, but then explained how it could be improved, that is then the constructive part.

Haven't you been on threads where Valance has given break-downs of the problem and even spit-balled particular solutions?

Either you're leaving out your specification of 'in this thread' or this seems an ill-warranted claim.

Perhaps because for the most part they feel like it is speaking to a brick wall.

True, but then there's the sad fact that thinking that way (or, accepting that fact) then often leads to the kinds of posting that would actually be reasonable for the devs to ignore. Sort of the problem of, say, land being allowed to desertify because it's no longer perfectly productive and therefore finally becoming truly not worth protecting, etc. /sigh