In 12 years the game hasn't innovated

[Valence]

Implying what you have put in this topic is constructive? It isn't, you have just criticised, but not offered solutions and it is the offer of a solution that makes something constructive.

So, if you do not like the fact that the exploratory zones are just hunts and fates, how would you change the system to move away from that? Or, what would you like to see added to break away from it?

Firmament/Cosmic Exploration, again, what would you like to see? What would be a system that makes you go, yes, this is different.

And this is a common thing among many people. They criticise, but they don't do it constructively. You need to offer a solution and not just, 'this is bad, change it'.

You seem to assume that I work for SE as a gameplay dev, which I do not. This is feedback from one player in the community, not a professional gameplay dev.

Would you want me to work on a multipage long full game design document with detailed features and gameplay bricks so it can directly be forwarded to the programmers immediately? I do not recall making this thread to humour your gamedesign fantasies, but point out that the game doesn't like very much to create brand new features, but perhaps we moved the goalposts so far that we're already on the moon or what?

The absolute irony in your reply is that someone should really hand you a mirror because all I've ever seen you do on those forums is take the actually constructive threads people make, however clumsy as some may be, and spend your time criticizing them to death. That's literally all you do, without offering any solutions.

[Shurrikhan]

That's the eternal issue for any problem with the game though; There may not be a viable solution that can be implemented (per the developers own words even) and even if there is one, other people will immediately push back against it (as seen by literally any topic here asking for anything ever).

It's difficult to actually have a constructive conversation to go with the criticism when a lot of people don't want to hear about it, automatically equating all criticism as "whining", or think everything is fine and doesn't need changing in the first place.

Oh, I definitely agree. I ask what would qualify to the people here out of curiosity, not some sense of "if you can't suggest better [despite being less experienced and, more importantly, unpaid], shush".

[Shurrikhan]

Aye, I've seen you post before and you never struck me as the latter example... which is saying a lot its self that some of us are so used to things "being the same" that we're even able to identify/remember each other's posting habits. (With Valence and Mikey_R providing another example of this albeit not so positively, lol.)

But really, I wouldn't even know what to suggest regarding changes because what I enjoy/can handle is different from everyone else. There's people out there claiming to fall asleep during Savage and want content across the board being made harder, while I'm over here constantly on the floor from Seat of Sacrifice NORMAL wishing I could have done it with Trusts/unsynced solo to progress the MSQ/farm the card. And jobs... yeah, that's always a sticking point because even if you could get people to agree that some should be complex while others are simple, they'll IMMEDIATELY start arguing over which ones get put into the easy or hard pile because they don't want their main to end up one way or the other.

Everyone wants a different game and we can't all have what we want, and so we go another round.

All this is true, but I feel like it's also not... quite entirely relevant to the thread at hand, if only in that "innovation" tends to be more about efficiency of experience-creation (i.e., X hours of development time being able to satisfy a broader span of needs or expand the "zone of attraction" beyond what it normally find for a given [type of] player), not specific to a given difficulty or type. Now, of course, what tends to get the most credit or attention from a given player will depend on what that player most enjoys, but just as we can find a tool well made even if it's of no use to us, I suspect "innovation" would likewise stand out (or fail to stand out) regardless of how much we are dissatisfied with (or satisfied with) those overarching ways of connecting or making greater use of the given content, or with said pieces of content itself.

For example, let's say there are a significant group of players who are fine with the form of a dungeon but not with its difficulty because it's so quickly outscaled into triviality. We might then allow most Duty Variants (or at least the Minimum Item Level variant) to be queued into via matchmaking, allow for a variant of a dungeon and its regular form to be queued for simultaneously (selected variants create a second column of checkboxes), and increase the rewards for Minimum Item Level runs proportionately to stats lost. In this way, they become faintly more efficient for skilled players (for the lesser portion of time spent running) while also offering all players a more even challenge.

We'll thereby have taken some existing system and expanded upon it with ease to meet a (in this hypothetical) significant desire. A small expenditure of resources has therefore been used once to increase the zone of attraction for a large part of mainstay content in perpetuity. Though nothing behind the outcome is "new" per se, the outcome and its regularity would be.

Or perhaps a new form of side-content is released wherein players are able to collect and, agreed upon as a party, apply certain additional "Trials" "Gambits" to said content, such as in greatly increasing healing requirements or the deadliness of key mobs or by causing mobs to self-destruct after a certain amount of time for massive damage or giving each mob type in the instance 1 to 3 extra special attacks randomly drawn from within a pool based on very general mob type; or perhaps there's a XIII(-2)-ish way to, as you move through the side-content's branching paths, to change the weather or time, varying what mobs you're fighting. That's a start, but let's say we go further by taking what players liked best from that bit of experimentation. Perhaps that was the compositional variety (50% healers, for instance) possible by emphasizing different challenges, or maybe how the content difficulty scaled to party-size (from 2 players to 8), and we then apply that backwards into all core content. Or the added mechanics per mob. Or even the "Gambit" system itself. Whichever.

In each case, though, the systems-level "innovation" tends not just to provide more content but also disproportionately more available experiences, which in turn allows people more to play what they want, how they want, etc., since it's allowing us to play (some significant part, at least, of) what all we had before through a new lens.

[hydralus]

You seem to pay a sub in white knighting so I'd love to see some innovation away from that as well but here we are.

Constructive contributions you've been doing all this time sir, my hat to you.

If you want to suggest some innovative ideas that will make this game different and not just a copy of MMOs you can already play then I will happily encourage it as I have other nice ideas people have had.
Sadly through all the posts you've made this doesn't seem to be something you nor Gurgeh are capable of.

[Avenheit]

i disagree, they have done a lot of innovative things to the game.

I think you're getting mixed up with innovation and enjoyment.

[Gurgeh]

... I'm curious what a theoretically "good" example of innovation would even look like to most here. ...

In an abstract sense, but it's still an answer to your question, the less it looks like everything around it, the more innovate it is. The more it looks like that around it, the more that profoundly limits how innovative it can ever be considered. Your scope of reference for that can either be limited to just this game, or all games.

Now that sounds obvious when said outloud but it's important when you consider how deeply systemic the problems might be, if a cornerstone and interwoven theme of your production process is "how can we optimise this to minimise the development input, and reuse and reprocess the results".

Less abstractly?
It could look like:
- we have a massive problem with the total disconnect between the casual gameplay and the high end game. So we are going to tear down the high end game, rebuild casual game, and rebuild the challenging game as a progression from there. Casual first with challanging as a holistic extension from there. As opposed to the current high end first, with casual as a gutted after thought of that game, just because balancing is easier if you just focus on balancing high end, develop your high end then just give that a cheap shave to deliver some casual.
- An island sanctuary with large-scale planning it even landscaping, which is unlike the small scale cookie cutter estate gardens.
- using reward systems to really incentivise progress, and helping progress (real mentouring) over and above toxic optimal farming and clears
- using reward systems to really incentivise duty finder over and above partyfinder to make that content more conveniently accessible.

What innovation can't look like:
- innovation can't ever look like backdating removing innovation, by homogenising old content to fit the mould of solo Trust content.
- innovation can't 'look' like backdating removing job innovation by homogenising job design and function to make balancing high end easier.
- innovation can't 'look' like recycling a 3x3 dungeon formula packages because it enables you to recycle a production spreadsheet.
- innovation can't look like new challenging content 24 man content that follows the same tired formula of relentless personal responsibility and stand in the right place at the right time *ahead of time* 'perfection', such as already used by savage, and that breeds all the same old culture of high-end PF exclusion, and reliance on out of game guides and study.

If you want to suggest some innovative ideas that will make this game different and not just a copy of MMOs you can already play then I will happily encourage it as I have other nice ideas people have had.
Sadly through all the posts you've made this doesn't seem to be something you nor Gurgeh are capable of.

Hydralus. I used to. You should see the optimism and trust I had in my fellow WoLs in very earliest posts. Until I watched fellow casuals being shot shot down nastily for any and every change to the status quo of end game equals high end and furthermore PF discord culture. Even just wanting to join Forked via the ticket mechanism that was created expressly to let them in. But your right I don't suggest detailed solutions now, because as you suspect, I don't really care all that much to help anymore. Its not my game, my community and culture has already left, and I want as little to do with the dominant community (and DOMINANT is so much the operative word here) as they wanted to have with me in CoD or Forked.
Oh and Hydralus, you know your tone and your own sentiment there was personal-'nasty', a good example. That said, my critiques do still have some value, it's just that they are targeted at the deeper systemic and so I'd argue perhaps more important issues. At the same time I belive only experienced game designers can translate that into solutions.
If one can't recognise that on my posts then that's frankly because of a intellect deficit on the part of that observer, that precludes them from coping with abstract thinking.

[Shurrikhan]

In an abstract sense, but it's still an answer to your question, the less it looks like everything around it, the more innovate it is.

Isn't the whole idea of innovation to build off of what was there before. It's both etymologically and per common use "to make the old (feel) new", after all. Wholesale unrelated new ideas would not therefore typically be "innovative", merely "novel", no?

I guess I have to wonder then whether some of the complaints here are from simply asking for a thing that would not be implied by the title given?

it's important when you consider how deeply systemic the problems might be, if a cornerstone and interwoven theme of your production process is "how can we optimise this to minimise the development input, and reuse and reprocess the results".

It is, sure; you don't want everything to feel the same in the process of maximizing the hours worth of enjoyable experiences per development hour spent.

But we shouldn't expect something entirely new from innovation, right? Only that it should feel an experience or piece of content born of innovation would 'feel' newer than we'd expect from the amount of unique development time put into it.

Less abstractly?
It could look like:
- we have a massive problem with the total disconnect between the casual gameplay and the high end game. So we are going to tear down the high end game, rebuild casual game, and rebuild the challenging game as a progression from there. Casual first with challanging as a holistic extension from there. As opposed to the current high end first, with casual as a gutted after thought of that game, just because balancing is easier if you just focus on balancing high end, develop your high end then just give that a cheap shave to deliver some casual.
- An island sanctuary with large-scale planning it even landscaping, which is unlike the small scale cookie cutter estate gardens.
- using reward systems to really incentivise progress and not just toxic optimal farming and clears
- using reward systems to really incentivise duty finder over and above partyfinder to make that content more conveniently accessible.

I guess my question for this and any similar example would be where does this show effective innovation rather than just more development time having been thrown at a given thing? (Granted, if there's reuse of the additional systems born of that extra effort in the given content later into other contents or content forms later, that could still produce about the same positive outcomes.)

I'll skip the first and last since I'm not sure we actually have any evidence on either among casual content being an afterthought slice of the "real" Savage content or that it'd be any worse for being so even if that were true, nor that there's reason to incentivize Duty Finder "over and above" Party Finder, especially in an MMORPG of all things, but the island sanctuary example seems more a matter of just "if you're going to bother with all the art and UI assets required, at least go deep enough for some longevity", and progress over "toxic optimal farming and clears" seems mostly a matter of rewards-balancing.

Though, I guess we could also look at perhaps breaking fights up into a larger number of "Phases" and provide first-time partial-clear bonuses for those who get to a further Phase than before, or maybe even repeated but increasingly diminished bonuses after the first based on overall party progress / regularity. It'd use the systems we already have, just in more detail, and could in turn reduce party (social) conflicts.

What innovation can't look like:
- innovation can't ever look like backdating removing innovation, by homogenising old content to fit the mould of solo Trust content.
- innovation can't 'look' like backdating removing job innovation by homogenising job design and function to make balancing high end easier.
- innovation can't 'look' like recycling a 3x3 dungeon formula packages because it enables you to recycle a production spreadsheet.
- innovation can't look like new challenging content 24 man content that follows the same tired formula of relentless personal responsibility and stand in the right place at the right time *ahead of time* 'perfection', such as already used by savage, and that breeds all the same old culture of high-end PF exclusion, and reliance on out of game guides and study.

Agreed, but I also don't think anyone would ever disagree, even if one might argue that there were some interesting reuses or upgrades or rehauls to certain mechanics among those larger systemic homogeneities.

[Mikey_R]

You seem to assume that I work for SE as a gameplay dev, which I do not. This is feedback from one player in the community, not a professional gameplay dev.

Would you want me to work on a multipage long full game design document with detailed features and gameplay bricks so it can directly be forwarded to the programmers immediately? I do not recall making this thread to humour your gamedesign fantasies, but point out that the game doesn't like very much to create brand new features, but perhaps we moved the goalposts so far that we're already on the moon or what?

The absolute irony in your reply is that someone should really hand you a mirror because all I've ever seen you do on those forums is take the actually constructive threads people make, however clumsy as some may be, and spend your time criticizing them to death. That's literally all you do, without offering any solutions.

Never said you had to make a multi page design document just to say what you would like added. Just simple ideas to form a backbone of something would do. For example, adding a daily/weekly quest into the exploration zones to kill a certain amount of X/Y/Z enemy to get rewards. However, I guess that would be too close to hunt marks in every expansion area where you go to a bill board and get the hunt marks.

However, the whole point of my post was to point out that if you think you are constructively criticizing (or providing constructive contributions), you are not. That vast majority of what you say is just criticism, it is only when you provide feedback into what you want to see improved and how it might be done, can you then say you are providing constructive criticism.

To give you an analogy, if you were to hand in a paper to a teacher/professor, and they turned around and said it was bad, redo it. That isn't helpful. However, if they said it was bad, but then explained how it could be improved, that is then the constructive part.

As for the irony in the last sentence, I quite literally constructively criticised your post as I explained why what you said wasn't constructive criticism, which, I believe, is the biggest irony here.

As for criticizing constructive threads, of course I am going to have an input if it is a topic I care about. I am putting my opinions out there and explaining why I think how I do, I might suggest improvements, I might say I don't think it is a viable idea, but they are always backed up with why I think that way.

So again, what would you like to see in exploration content that would come across as new and not just rehashing old content (apparently ignoring the elemental wheel, logos actions, lost actions, phantom jobs etc.). How would you change the content of Cosmic Exploration/Firmament to make it so that it isn't just 'crafting/gathering leves or collectables'. Lets have your ideas. You yourself say you want the game to improve, but you don't seem to want to put in the effort to provide ideas to the dev team in order to do so. Who knows, an idea might pick up traction and it gets implemented on the next iteration. There is plenty of time before the next exploration zone in the next expansion (if they are going to do one) and if the idea is simple enough, it might even make it into North Horn, though that is unlikely.

The whole point is, rather than just go on a doom and gloom posting spree, why not actually provide the feedback the devs want. What are you looking for and why.

[Kaurhz]

The whole point is, rather than just go on a doom and gloom posting spree, why not actually provide the feedback the devs want. What are you looking for and why.

Perhaps because for the most part they feel like it is speaking to a brick wall.

Like, people HATED the BA way of queueing up to the large scale... What did they do? Solve it with Delubrum where it's a normal instanced duty... What did they do after that? Repeat the exact same mistake as what they did 7 years ago...

The reality is, that they ask us to put feedback on here, then they routinely ignore it or don't actually engage with it at all, then we have people, like yourself wondering why people are not being more constructive with their discussion... Beyond a certain point it is quite literally just a brick wall situation.

It's funny that some people spend so much time completely blaming the player, as if this problem would be even half as bad as it currently is if they actually elected to engage with the feedback properly beyond just platitudes.

[Valence]

If you want to suggest some innovative ideas that will make this game different and not just a copy of MMOs you can already play then I will happily encourage it as I have other nice ideas people have had.
Sadly through all the posts you've made this doesn't seem to be something you nor Gurgeh are capable of.

I actually made some. Notably one on itemization with some inspiration from the diadem, also indulged at some point in the past in trying to offer a couple of ideas for what certain jobs like RDM could play like in threads about job identity.
I have also suggested a lot of changes and adjustment notably on the MCH job over the years, of which a lot were shared by the community as a whole, and some were brand new ideas of my own.
I do think I have been rather prolific and constructive on what should be changed, improved, or made better in the pvp sub section as well (and not just on job balance, for example UI, etc).
I just made two days ago another thread in this very general discussion on how I'd improve on the dronebits feature from CE.

If you mean absolutely brand new features as described in the OP I'd like seeing, I'm ready to hear your ideas so we can discuss it and bounce over it then. Usually when I do suggest something like this, the immediate reply is "you're just trying to make the game into something it isn't". Heads I win, tails I lose kind of community.

You also specified different and not just a "copy" of MMOs we can already play, may I ask what it entails? Does it include inspiration? Because if so I'm afraid that if you think that creation comes out of thin air, you'd be very naive to think so.

i disagree, they have done a lot of innovative things to the game.

I think you're getting mixed up with innovation and enjoyment.

And I think you didn't understand the slightest bit of what the OP actually describes yourself. Else please give me counter examples to back up your point.

Never said you had to make a multi page design document just to say what you would like added. Just simple ideas to form a backbone of something would do. For example, adding a daily/weekly quest into the exploration zones to kill a certain amount of X/Y/Z enemy to get rewards. However, I guess that would be too close to hunt marks in every expansion area where you go to a bill board and get the hunt marks.

However, the whole point of my post was to point out that if you think you are constructively criticizing (or providing constructive contributions), you are not. That vast majority of what you say is just criticism, it is only when you provide feedback into what you want to see improved and how it might be done, can you then say you are providing constructive criticism.

To give you an analogy, if you were to hand in a paper to a teacher/professor, and they turned around and said it was bad, redo it. That isn't helpful. However, if they said it was bad, but then explained how it could be improved, that is then the constructive part.

As for the irony in the last sentence, I quite literally constructively criticised your post as I explained why what you said wasn't constructive criticism, which, I believe, is the biggest irony here.

As for criticizing constructive threads, of course I am going to have an input if it is a topic I care about. I am putting my opinions out there and explaining why I think how I do, I might suggest improvements, I might say I don't think it is a viable idea, but they are always backed up with why I think that way.

So again, what would you like to see in exploration content that would come across as new and not just rehashing old content (apparently ignoring the elemental wheel, logos actions, lost actions, phantom jobs etc.). How would you change the content of Cosmic Exploration/Firmament to make it so that it isn't just 'crafting/gathering leves or collectables'. Lets have your ideas. You yourself say you want the game to improve, but you don't seem to want to put in the effort to provide ideas to the dev team in order to do so. Who knows, an idea might pick up traction and it gets implemented on the next iteration. There is plenty of time before the next exploration zone in the next expansion (if they are going to do one) and if the idea is simple enough, it might even make it into North Horn, though that is unlikely.

The whole point is, rather than just go on a doom and gloom posting spree, why not actually provide the feedback the devs want. What are you looking for and why.

I really don't understand how everything you said here even applies to that thread in particular. If you want me to give ideas on what to improve on specific features or types of content, I have made plenty of threads that definitely fall into your definition of constructive criticism. Take that other thread on texture tiling in the general subsection as well, are you taking issue too because they're not providing solutions to the devs how to fix the issue (which I actually did in my reply there)?
Likewise, this thread ain't about that.

Besides this, as said above, I'm not paid to do the devs' work for them. As you said, the devs are after feedback, which doesn't mean design solutions.

Like both you and Hydralus above, I'm afraid you're just cherry picking what you want to read or see and what you don't really.