New Dungeon is a return to bad habits

[Ath192]

It absolutely isn't, that first pull in the pond is pathetically easy in a world where most enemies do literally 2-3 damage and Healers have literally nothing to do in pulls other than spam their basic heal, people who try to act like ARR pulls are hard completely ignore the reality of Healer level scaling, and that it's not until Qarn that anything will threaten you, and even then only because of the bees which is a gimmick attack, and nothing genuinely hurts until Stone Vigil, this leads to most of ARR being piss easy wtw pulls where the Healer and Tank do nothing but mash a single button.

Yet here you are attempting to act like, what was it again, 2-3 more mobs that will appear only after the initial pull is done, to the point nobody cares about the note and just take their chances at the button, add any real complexity or are any more of an annoyance.

Please heed to your own words, it's you who is adhering to a blind narrative.

You know. I don't even have to use words. We can just see it happening in this hilarious video. I will repeat, and now provide video evidence. Sastasha had bigger more complex pulls, was a more fleshed out dungeon than what have now at level 100. There were also a ton more rooms to explore, not that anyone did, but you COULD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx0FGkueY-4

As a side note, I haven't laughed as much as I did watching this video in a good while. Especially when an entire army starts chasing the last dps lmao. I cant say any of that for new dungeons -.-

That dungeon provided more fun in 1 minute than any expert dungeon does right now.

[Alice_Rivers]

It is true to say that in terms of threat levels, I feel like dungeons have gone down pretty significantly from ARR to DT. One does not simply forget healing W2W Stone Vigil, that is an experience, on the other hand DT pulls are not memorable at all and the healer only exists as a healer if things are going horribly wrong - Or there's a DRK whose use of abyssal drain and living dead are imperfect (though for some DRK is things going horribly wrong).

Someone previously said about making mobs synergistic and I agree, nothing in a duty should be pointless (including healers) and mobs are the second most pointless things in dungeons right now. Sure they shouldn't live as long as bosses, they're not bosses, but they should at least put up a fight. If we're so all powerful that nothing CAN put up a fight against us then what are dungeons for anymore?

[Deejudanne]

Dungeon design could really use some radical changes, falling asleep with the current format of 2 packs per forced stop due to doors

[Lunaxia]

I think what people miss is the sense of variety and unpredictability. I would say DT dungeons have been more difficult, on average, than previous expansions, but they've also been much more rigid. And though the bosses have more complex mechanics, the novelty wears off after a while, and it becomes just as repetitive as earlier dungeons, only without the colour they used to have. Before, leniency with mobs and the satisfaction of wall to wall pulls, coupled with a more engaging environment (different rooms, pathways, mob variety, environmental damage etc.) meant there was always that element of surprise, if you like, where something unexpected could still happen and you had something to think about or focus on. It's very linear now.

And to be honest, I don't even think the extra difficulty is even fun. A lot of it is just busy DDR mechanics that overly punish minor missteps with cheap "gotcha!" attacks and don't even feel satisfying to beat. I wasn't fond of Mistwake, it still felt clunky and overworked, but it felt more evenly paced and thought out than prior dungeons.

[Valence]

If anything I truly agree with the OP, the sub 50 ARR dungeon design was at its peak ironically, little flaws of design notwithstanding.

[Merrigan]

I think what people miss is the sense of variety and unpredictability. I would say DT dungeons have been more difficult, on average, than previous expansions, but they've also been much more rigid. And though the bosses have more complex mechanics, the novelty wears off after a while, and it becomes just as repetitive as earlier dungeons, only without the colour they used to have. Before, leniency with mobs and the satisfaction of wall to wall pulls, coupled with a more engaging environment (different rooms, pathways, mob variety, environmental damage etc.) meant there was always that element of surprise, if you like, where something unexpected could still happen and you had something to think about or focus on. It's very linear now.

And to be honest, I don't even think the extra difficulty is even fun. A lot of it is just busy DDR mechanics that overly punish minor missteps with cheap "gotcha!" attacks and don't even feel satisfying to beat. I wasn't fond of Mistwake, it still felt clunky and overworked, but it felt more evenly paced and thought out than prior dungeons.

This. The difficulty is higher in DT, and I love the ‘nervous’ aspect of the new bosses. But what's annoying is the endless ‘2 pack - 1 wall’ rhythm. As a tank, it's particularly noticeable: how boring it is after ARR! I'll use Stone Vigil as a reference again and again: despite its age, it's one of the only dungeons where I bother to really look at my healer's levelling. And I adapt my pulls accordingly, because w2w with a newbie isn't always possible.

It's this necessary adaptability that's missing in current dungeons. I don't know if it's a lack of time that dictates this shift towards such a monotonous rhythm, but if anything needs to be modified to the dungeons, it's that.

[Teno]

As said in another thread - I enjoyed it. Played it with Trust (as a side-note, Sphene was a great healer) the first time I played it and found the balance about right personally.

Unpopular an opinion as this may be, I'm going to express it anyway: I'm hoping they continue to balance fights in this manner; I don't see why every boss has to be a DDR-attack fest - let those of us who prefer some balance have some fun.
I know I did.

There's no "DDR-attack" fest anyway and it's not balance, you just have the bar low. Mentioning Sphene being a good healer when it's literally a bare bones npc is testament to that.

[Astronis]

This. The difficulty is higher in DT, and I love the ‘nervous’ aspect of the new bosses. But what's annoying is the endless ‘2 pack - 1 wall’ rhythm. As a tank, it's particularly noticeable: how boring it is after ARR! I'll use Stone Vigil as a reference again and again: despite its age, it's one of the only dungeons where I bother to really look at my healer's levelling. And I adapt my pulls accordingly, because w2w with a newbie isn't always possible.

It's this necessary adaptability that's missing in current dungeons. I don't know if it's a lack of time that dictates this shift towards such a monotonous rhythm, but if anything needs to be modified to the dungeons, it's that.

More Mt. Gulg options would be nice. No one ever has to pull wall to wall there, and generally people aren't surprised or upset if you don't, but it's there for the taking if you want.

As far as trash pack synergy goes...it's there, kind of, at least in a couple dungeons. Tower of Zot has untelegraphed tankbusters and a couple critters that are higher priority to keep under control than others. Vanguard has one with a ton of magic damage that caught people off guard as well, though it's not as big a deal any more.

[Carin-Eri]

There's no "DDR-attack" fest anyway and it's not balance, you just have the bar low. Mentioning Sphene being a good healer when it's literally a bare bones npc is testament to that.

Well I enjoyed it and thought it was well-balanced. I feel no shame in holding this opinion and am as entitled to my view (minus the low-key insults you couldn't resist expressing) as you are to yours

[Ath192]

More Mt. Gulg options would be nice. No one ever has to pull wall to wall there, and generally people aren't surprised or upset if you don't, but it's there for the taking if you want.

As far as trash pack synergy goes...it's there, kind of, at least in a couple dungeons. Tower of Zot has untelegraphed tankbusters and a couple critters that are higher priority to keep under control than others. Vanguard has one with a ton of magic damage that caught people off guard as well, though it's not as big a deal any more.

I don't understand why the developers thought locking down content so it could only be played one way was the correct decision. Freedom is always the best course of action. A dungeon has to be designed with a particular clear path in mind, sure, however it must allow for its rules to be challenged and broken.

This was clear in early dungeons, where, a player and their party had to become aware of each others capabilities to make that determination for themselves. CAN we pull the whole dungeon? Dungeons also taught discipline and punishment for making the wrong decisions.

In modern dungeons there is nothing to think about. At all. Why would anyone think that is fun is beyond me. And to top it off the bosses hardly punish in a way where a wipe is likely. Do they happen? of course they do, but they are anomalies and probably accidents rather than due to the challenge the dungeon itself presents.

They are "Oh hey, I couldn't fit in 10 GCDs by the time that giant cast bar got finished casting and it killed me" deaths.