We need a new dungeon design team

[Jeeqbit]

There are 2 types of dungeon designers, the actual designers which those applications ask for, and the designers who set the standards. Guess which we want to have replaced.

If it was my job to set dungeon standards, I would get 365 days holiday a year, because my job is done for the next 10 years. It is ultimately Yoshi-P and/or a round table decision, that thereafter became the "formula" and they probably don't even think about it. They admitted with Cosmic Exploration and Occult Crescent that they just create things based on precedent (the formula), without even so much as consulting Yoshi-P about it, because they are so busy and feel rushed. Their formula is like a way of meeting the deadlines.

There are no dungeon designers anymore. Just boss designers.

That's a good way to put it.

most people running those dungeons when they were relevant were NOT speedrunning them.

Agreed but the context is a lot of people didn't speedrun them even after they were made easier. Because a lot of dungeon tanks were always casual, first-timer, roleplayer or low-confidence tanks with "tanxiety" etc.

However, in HW, I found it to be quite normal for tanks to enter ARR dungeons and just pull everything, wipe, then leave. I had it so many times that it was essentially them telling SE to let them do it with ease or they'll sabotage parties.

Doing full w2w pulls was NOT the standard for duty finder like it is today because those pulls required most of the party to be on their A game.

I don't know if w2w is even the standard today. Maybe it is due to WAR/PLD's excessive heals. But at least up to the end of Shadowbringers there were still plenty of tanks doing single pulls despite the ease of healing the majority of big pulls.

[Hyperia]

The biggest challenge to dungeon design is not creativity but the trust system and making the dungeons as accessible as possible because they are apart of the MSQ.

If they were not trust comparable and not on the MSQ, there is a real possibility you would see some amazing dungeons.

[Ryaze]

The design is that way because of how we the playerbase ran them.

Design dungeons with lots of side paths or multiple ways to reach the next point? We ignored the side paths, found which way was the quickest, and only ran that way.

Don't put the walls every 2 trash packs? We pulled all the way to the boss, reset the trash, and effectively skipped everything except the bosses. Then we doubled down and harassed people who weren't on board with that and actually wanted to play through the dungeon and see everything.

Note - when I say "we", I don't mean you and me personally. I mean us as the FFXIV playerbase in general. Point being - the design is what it is because of how we the community treated it. As it stands now, the current playerbase would likewise need to prove to the developers that we as a group actually want something different. And no, the minuscule few of us that post on a forum known for immaturity and a deluge of negativity isn't going to do that.

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Except they never designed dungeons like this. There were never multiple paths to the end. On occasion there was a side room in a leveling dungeon with an extra chest. This was fine in ARR when you didn’t get to the next MSQ just by completing the former. You had to fate grind or dungeon grind. So people would actually bother for a chance at an extra piece of gear that they’d keep using for another 5-10 levels. But that’s not the case anymore. There’s no reason for a chance at a slightly better upgrade that you’ll replace in 2-3 levels via MSQ coffers. This isn’t the playerbase’s fault. This is the direct result of changes that the devs made to their own game via streamlining the MSQ and MSQ experience gain. The playerbase didn’t change, the systems did.

Yea, people used to pull entire hallways in Wanderer’s Palace, pull the boss, and reset the mobs. The solution isn’t more walls, it’s making changes so the behavior isn’t desirable.

Why loot dungeon drops at max level when tomestones are what is desired? Sure, some players will min-max everything. By and large player behaviors are driven by game systems. Make nothing worthwhile within the dungeon except for the finish line and you encourage players to reach the end as quick as possible. They’ve continued this design by diverting dungeon mob experience to boss experience only. Why kill extra mobs when only bosses and the end of the dungeon give experience?

The current dungeon design is how it is because FFXIV developers saw a problem and instead of reiterating, spending time being creative, brainstorming, or taking risks they took the simplest, quickest, and easiest solution. Preach literally asked Yoshi-P about dungeon design prior to DT and Yoshi-P straight up said that they do dungeons as they are because they have a formula to follow and it’s easy to develop via that formula.

[Gwenkatsu]

I think the fact that ARR through Stormblood had near perfect player retention while Dawntrail has lost FIFTY PERCENT of the playerbase is substantial enough evidence of what approach players REALLY prefer.

Players leave for multitudes of reasons, so a drop in player count is certainly not an evidence for your personal agenda... or mine, or anybody else's. In my case DT dungeon quality had 0 influence when I left last year.
BTW: I would have liked to tell SE the exact reasons why I left, but unfortunately the exit survey is utter BS.

[YumieYumiki]

They have the same problem as the video game industry at large: the delusion that reusing the same gameplay dressed with ever more sophisticated and "spectacular" visuals is enough to keep players engaged.

The new air force one is an almost ridiculously perfect example of this.

Innovating on gameplay is hard, so everypne goes for visuals instead.

Cs3 went wven further and completely standardized the gameplay. Don't want the hassle of thinking about the game will play all the time.

[Valence]

The design is that way because of how we the playerbase ran them.

Design dungeons with lots of side paths or multiple ways to reach the next point? We ignored the side paths, found which way was the quickest, and only ran that way.

Don't put the walls every 2 trash packs? We pulled all the way to the boss, reset the trash, and effectively skipped everything except the bosses. Then we doubled down and harassed people who weren't on board with that and actually wanted to play through the dungeon and see everything.

Note - when I say "we", I don't mean you and me personally. I mean us as the FFXIV playerbase in general. Point being - the design is what it is because of how we the community treated it. As it stands now, the current playerbase would likewise need to prove to the developers that we as a group actually want something different. And no, the minuscule few of us that post on a forum known for immaturity and a deluge of negativity isn't going to do that.

You can't pin everything on the playerbase. It's part of a designer's job to create systems that take into account player behavior, and make choices to influence said behavior. If you add a specific reward for doing something in any game, that's already setting up player behavior and expectancy on its own, depending on how your reward is granted and for doing what.

I don't believe that was made as such because the playerbase tries optimizing everything. Any competent dev would know this already. That's a conscious choice on their end to roll with it because it makes the dungeons predictable, easy and following a clear formula, for which Yoshida has already expressed that it wouldn't change anyway precisely because it allows them to churn out dungeons fast. That's it, the decision is literally all about productivity over quality.

As for resetting the trash, that's something that can be considered as a clear oversight with systems that can prevent this to happen (walls before bosses, walls that don't close behind once the boss fight starts, impossibility to teleport to the boss checkpoint unless trash has been cleared, etc).

[OliverQ]

I would really like to see dungeons without trash mobs. Instead do mini bosses, or extra regular bosses.

[Zairava]

I would really like to see dungeons without trash mobs. Instead do mini bosses, or extra regular bosses.

just delete the dungeon category entirely at that point lol. Just title the category as boss rushes

[Gaddes]

I think in tandem with this they HAVE to get someone to do a better job with the NPC AI behavior for the trusts, because they seem to eventually dumb down more complex dungeons/mechanics because their current trusts are too stupid to manage those mechanics properly.

[Router]

I mainly wish they'd make the trash pulls better, is the best we can do still auto attacking mobs with occasional circle or cone AoEs? Add some interrupts, or mini tankbusters, or mobs that don't follow normal aggro rules. Give us something, at least.