We need a new dungeon design team

[Miguel85NYC]

Im pretty sure everyone is tired on doing the same dungeons over and over.. 4 packs of trash, boss.. etc. Im hoping the dungeons will be better in 8.0 but I highly doubt it. Its going to be the same just streamline..

Can we please do better??

[Jeeqbit]

Just so you're aware, they've hired lots and lots and lots of dungeon designers over the last few years. I was watching the constant job applications for it come and go. And they said that they wanted people who would design a dungeon just like the current ones, that lasts about 20 minutes, and has the same average difficulty and number of mechanics per boss fight.

The job application involved designing a dungeon battle and submitting it along with the application.

What I'm saying is that the design team has changed over time and the dungeon design is a decision from the top. They could almost certainly do it differently if they were asked to.

[UkcsAlias]

And they said that they wanted people who would design a dungeon just like the current ones, that lasts about 20 minutes, and has the same average difficulty and number of mechanics per boss fight.

There are 2 types of dungeon designers, the actual designers which those applications ask for, and the designers who set the standards. Guess which we want to have replaced.

[Valence]

Just so you're aware, they've hired lots and lots and lots of dungeon designers over the last few years. I was watching the constant job applications for it come and go. And they said that they wanted people who would design a dungeon just like the current ones, that lasts about 20 minutes, and has the same average difficulty and number of mechanics per boss fight.

The job application involved designing a dungeon battle and submitting it along with the application.

What I'm saying is that the design team has changed over time and the dungeon design is a decision from the top. They could almost certainly do it differently if they were asked to.

So, if they keep hiring so many, are they constantly leaving out of disgust after a few months or...?

[UkcsAlias]

So, if they keep hiring so many, are they constantly leaving out of disgust after a few months or...?

They get hired
They make a dungeon
People dislike the dungeon
They get blamed, and fired

Repeat that cycle.

(actualy hope it isnt realy that bad, but i can imagine for a dev not liking it when you are blamed for something out of your control, so maybe they do leave instead)

[Striker44]

Im pretty sure everyone is tired on doing the same dungeons over and over.. 4 packs of trash, boss.. etc. Im hoping the dungeons will be better in 8.0 but I highly doubt it. Its going to be the same just streamline..

Can we please do better??

The design is that way because of how we the playerbase ran them.

Design dungeons with lots of side paths or multiple ways to reach the next point? We ignored the side paths, found which way was the quickest, and only ran that way.

Don't put the walls every 2 trash packs? We pulled all the way to the boss, reset the trash, and effectively skipped everything except the bosses. Then we doubled down and harassed people who weren't on board with that and actually wanted to play through the dungeon and see everything.

Note - when I say "we", I don't mean you and me personally. I mean us as the FFXIV playerbase in general. Point being - the design is what it is because of how we the community treated it. As it stands now, the current playerbase would likewise need to prove to the developers that we as a group actually want something different. And no, the minuscule few of us that post on a forum known for immaturity and a deluge of negativity isn't going to do that.

[UkcsAlias]

The design is that way because of how we the playerbase ran them.

The problem isnt wall to wall on itself, the problem is that its the same pattern over and over again, which is boring. Do something more original, maybe 4 bosses, or 2 with a few subbosses instead, maybe a single section with 6 packs. Maybe add synergies between enemies that make it very hard to wall to wall (some packs causing a vuln up to magic, while another pack does that to phys, and add 2 mobs that do tank busters of those styles).

In most dungeons the damage feels patheticly weak. You can wall to wall these at min ilvl on day 1. That just shouldnt be possible. Its not a problem to make a tank struggle a bit on these mobs. they have mitigations. And that late in the game, if as player you dont even know to use these, then you are just asking for it. We can even put a last resort in for this: The echo. Died once, weaken the enemies so it becomes better survivable again.

Only if doing it single player (duty support), then the current damage values can be fine. This is nearly always slower than what players do anyway.

Design dungeons with lots of side paths or multiple ways to reach the next point? We ignored the side paths, found which way was the quickest, and only ran that way.

People always want the most time efficient route, unless the rewards are significantly greater. And the sad thing is, while some chests might give a rare resource (which the ARR dungeons had a few times), once the dungeon becomes unsync farmable, this becomes trivial for those, causing value to plummet.

But why not introducing forced random paths? Sometimes its left side, sometimes right side. If it goes into a circle, it might still be the same packs, but it can give the feel of variety.

Don't put the walls every 2 trash packs? We pulled all the way to the boss, reset the trash, and effectively skipped everything except the bosses. Then we doubled down and harassed people who weren't on board with that and actually wanted to play through the dungeon and see everything.

Except in a few dungeons where the packs are notoriously damaging. Want to stop wall to wall, make sure its barely survivable by most players. I still dont see a lot of tanks going for 6 ice sprites and the rest of the mobs.

Creativity and putting something down that players arent expecting, thats what makes a dungeon good.

[Jeeqbit]

So, if they keep hiring so many, are they constantly leaving out of disgust after a few months or...?

While it's possible, I believe the actual reason they have hired so many is because:

There is more battle content produced now than ever before. Despite everyone claiming otherwise.

Sidequest dungeon revamps. MSQ dungeon bosses. MSQ trials. Solo duty bosses. Deep dungeon bosses. Ultimates. Normal/Savage raids. Alliance raids. Hildibrand duties. Limited job duties. Variant, Criterion. Chaotic. Quantum. South Horn battles (each FATE/CE). Forked Tower. North Horn battles (FATEs/CEs). North Horn raid. Arguably Cosmic's FATEs/events.

Dungeon design is the first step on the ladder; most likely they are meant to progress to designing raids and other fights.

[SyferU]

have you ever thought what would happen if the dungeons would be more complex? Imagine just wanting to cap tomes and you end up in a party with 2-3 new players taking ages to make it to the end.

I'm fine with the current dungeon design as long as the bosses are fun (which isn't really the case for mistwake).

[DarkOmegaGod]

There are no dungeon designers anymore. Just boss designers.
There are no class designers anymore. Just boss designers.
There are no field content designers anymore. Just boss designers.
And despite all this the boss fights still really aren't much to write home about. Oh wow the boss raised his glowing right arm and then did a cleave on his right side? Crazy. Haven't seen that one before.

Design dungeons with lots of side paths or multiple ways to reach the next point? We ignored the side paths, found which way was the quickest, and only ran that way.

Don't put the walls every 2 trash packs? We pulled all the way to the boss, reset the trash, and effectively skipped everything except the bosses. Then we doubled down and harassed people who weren't on board with that and actually wanted to play through the dungeon and see everything.

This is ignorance at best and revisionist history at worst. I can assure you that most people running those dungeons when they were relevant were NOT speedrunning them. When the leveling process took a lot longer it was common for tanks to stop and ask if anyone wanted to go for side chests. It was very common for people to get lost and take wrong turns. Doing full w2w pulls was NOT the standard for duty finder like it is today because those pulls required most of the party to be on their A game.

I think the fact that ARR through Stormblood had near perfect player retention while Dawntrail has lost FIFTY PERCENT of the playerbase is substantial enough evidence of what approach players REALLY prefer.