Revelations from Patch 7.4: Into the Mist

[Cleretic]

Honestly, I don't reject the Ancient/Azem key theory not because of a dislike for the Ancients or Azem; it's just that when that's the only theory being entertained, everything else kinda has to take the form of a refutation.

I don't like the theory because it's not their story, and there's just more potential and interest in giving that 'creator' role to to people whose story it is. I don't care about the key because it's the key, it's interesting because of its part in the story of the milalla and Alexandria; how it's simultaneously a tool of exploration, migration and domination, and the symbol of curiosity, relief and terror that all brings. The things that it can do are so enormous and meaningful, and so the story should link it to previous bearers that can actually grapple with those ideas and potentials: people who, for good or ill, want to use it themselves, eventually to the point of making it*.

The Ancients are a poor answer to the question not because they are an inherently bad answer, but because that route is just... a dead end. The Ancients don't have those gears, that's just not the notes their story plays. Making the key a product of Azem, or any Ancient (save maybe Venat, but that story was already told), just makes less story; there are not compelling, satisfying and interesting answers to the questions the key raises if those questions are being asked in the Ancient world.

There are just more exciting answers to this question than 'Azem', and honestly I really, REALLY wish this forum (and the playerbase as a whole but these forums are exceptionally bad about it) would stop immediately insisting that the answer to every mystery is the shortest possible line they can draw to 'the Ancients' or 'the Ascians', and ignoring all possible answers otherwise. I'd have thought people would have learned from when Sphene's hip ornament and the Arcadion's logo both turned out to not be Ascian glyphs, but apparently not.

*For another example of an alternate theory I wish we'd be able to discuss more and independently: I'm not certain anyone 'made' the key. Knowing what we do now that the chalice is merely a control system and the 'key' is the crystal inside, I think it's entirely possible that it's a natural occurrence. Which raises its own suite of entirely different questions.

[Lunaxia]

I don't like the theory because it's not their story,

This is such a wild claim when the past few patches have been consistently weaving in Ascian involvement already, from Alexandria's backstory, to the key, to Calyx himself. Not only that, but given that the Ancients are the progenitors of a vast majority of the story's beats, it's very odd to try to disentangle them from any portion of the game's history and claim it's not their story, especially when we have no idea what's going on or what direction we're heading in. The Hydaelyn and Zodiark era might be finished, but as we've seen with the Pandaemonium raids, that's not to say that all's ell that ends well, not by a long shot.

There are just more exciting answers to this question than 'Azem', and honestly I really, REALLY wish this forum (and the playerbase as a whole but these forums are exceptionally bad about it) would stop immediately insisting that the answer to every mystery is the shortest possible line they can draw to 'the Ancients' or 'the Ascians'

We currently have a key with Azem's exact associated purpose, colour and symbol, down to the fading lines on the circle, Ascians, and the suggestion of another imminent calamity. I don't think this is one of those times.

I'd wager this is also what Miayli identifies as fate, which immediately called to mind the quote from Emet-Selch to commemorate Azem's crystal:

I'm glad someone else thought this lol, I was like "that's an interesting word..." And it does feel very like what we know of them to create some such object to throw out into the mortal world, foreseeing its use at some juncture. It's noteworthy that despite how long it's been around, no one's ever yet managed to properly wield it or unlock its secrets, and this mention of an "inexorable force" suggests to me it could be by design.

[Cleretic]

We currently have a key with Azem's exact associated purpose, colour and symbol, down to the fading lines on the circle, Ascians, and the suggestion of another imminent calamity. I don't think this is one of those times.

And doesn't it seem much more interesting to consider that someone else put that symbol there? That someone else, long after they were gone, cares about that story so much that they built something that lets them follow in their own interpretation of what that means?

To be clear I don't expect you to find that more interesting, you've been quite open that your entire interest in this game begins and ends with a single Endwalker zone. But I'm hoping someone else sees where I'm coming from; I think there's a lot more to this game's world than over-centralizing theories like this give it credit for.

[Lunaxia]

And doesn't it seem much more interesting to consider that someone else put that symbol there? That someone else, long after they were gone, cares about that story so much that they built something that lets them follow in their own interpretation of what that means?

No, I just see it as another (somewhat unlikely) potential theory that doesn't really have much substance to it. But I'm also not so needlessly and bizarrely embittered towards the Ancients that I flatly refuse to see any possibility or merit of their having any further part in the story, so there's that.

To be clear I don't expect you to find that more interesting, you've been quite open that your entire interest in this game begins and ends with a single Endwalker zone. But I'm hoping someone else sees where I'm coming from; I think there's a lot more to this game's world than over-centralizing theories like this give it credit for.

...that's not even remotely correct. Pandaemonium aside, I haven't found much enjoyable in the way of the Ancients since Shadowbringers, in either the story or its characters. Most of the other plot threads I do or have enjoyed were either brought to a close or more or less obliterated by Endwalker's abrupt tying of ARR's loose knots, save perhaps the Void, and Dawntrail was so appallingly bad it scared away half the playerbase.

Contrary to what you think, I am not on the edge of my seat hoping this is Azem, and if anything I'm more concerned with how they deliver what's coming, and not what it is, because they've been failing magnificently in their ability to deliver a half-decent story for several years now. I was wondering if the theory could work, in light of what we do know, when you started on your dedicated and entirely unbiased soliloquy as to how boring you find the Ancients and why that means it couldn't possibly be true. Which is... your choice, but why you feel the need to sour any and all discussion when it involves something you don't like instead of saying "hm, maybe, but not for me" is something you might want to think about.

There's also a deep irony somewhere in being accused of being focused on my own personal preferences and then suggesting Venat is the only Ancient left with a potentially interesting story.

[Mansion]

The Ancients are a poor answer to the question not because they are an inherently bad answer, but because that route is just... a dead end. The Ancients don't have those gears, that's just not the notes their story plays. Making the key a product of Azem, or any Ancient (save maybe Venat, but that story was already told), just makes less story; there are not compelling, satisfying and interesting answers to the questions the key raises if those questions are being asked in the Ancient world.

I agree. But I can also understand why people usually think about this connexion first, given that most of the game comes from some form os Ascian meddling or Ancient storylines. And once the Ancient arching story was over, not even a full extension in and we are again confronted to another Ascian. And while I also agree that a great story can stem from this, there are considerable chances that the writers will tie the Winterer story to the Ancients somehow.

I also like it when people make suggestions and interpretations out of the (ascian) box here on the forums. But I would tend to think the writers usually stick to what they know rather than making brand new stories when it comes to MSQ. The "all new" features are usually world building related (like Doman / First / Tural history for instance).

[Cleretic]

I agree. But I can also understand why people usually think about this connexion first, given that most of the game comes from some form os Ascian meddling or Ancient storylines. And once the Ancient arching story was over, not even a full extension in and we are again confronted to another Ascian. And while I also agree that a great story can stem from this, there are considerable chances that the writers will tie the Winterer story to the Ancients somehow.

I also like it when people make suggestions and interpretations out of the (ascian) box here on the forums. But I would tend to think the writers usually stick to what they know rather than making brand new stories when it comes to MSQ. The "all new" features are usually world building related (like Doman / First / Tural history for instance).

The entire story of the Ancients was essentially made up for Shadowbringers; they come up with new stuff a lot, they're just usually pretty good at making it feel like it was always there. I agree that the writers do have a habit of reaching back to a common gear, but this isn't how they do it; the way they usually do this is through 'guess what Allagan horror we dug up this patch', and the mystique is usually thin because it's entirely an excuse plot, 'Allagan horrors' is just a generally reliable conceit. ('Voidsent horrors' used to be a good one too, but that feels like one they've put to bed.) But even if 'Ancient shenanigans' was a new entry in that stable, and I don't think it is, the Key has remained unresolved for too long for me to believe it's something they're treating like that.

The key is kind of an uncharted territory in this respect, because we've never really had an inanimate THING that's an unresolved but deliberate mystery. The closest is Zodiark, and I think that is an intentional note being taken even if it's not on the level people are acting like it is. It's not that the key is tied to the Ancients because it's filling the same role as the last Big Ancient Thing, but I think that, like Zodiark and the Ascians, the key is being set up as a long-standing thread that we don't have the answer to right now. Now, with Zodiark and the Ascians they were written like that because the devs literally didn't have a plan; they were weaving unresolved plot threads and going 'eventually someone will come up with an answer for this and make it look deliberate'. That might be true here--they might just not have an answer for the key and are just putting that part on layaway--but Yoshi-P has been talking like they've actually planned this story, and in this case I'm inclined to believe him. In which case they're deliberately evoking the same longstanding thing, taking the same steps with more focus and intention.

All that is to say, I don't think the key was made by anyone we currently know about, Ancient or otherwise. That the reason the question has not been answered, and why all of our speculative theories have such clear holes, is because the answer has not been introduced yet.

[Mansion]

All that is to say, I don't think the key was made by anyone we currently know about, Ancient or otherwise. That the reason the question has not been answered, and why all of our speculative theories have such clear holes, is because the answer has not been introduced yet.

I'm with you on this. Although I can see the difficulty to write something all new in a 10+ years narrative without feeling like an odd retcon. Still, I'd rather see them try something different.
The shard hopping narrative is up in the air since Shadowbringers, and I hope we will have a side quest at some point where Y'Shtola visits Runar back lol

[Vallavia]

I'm with you on this. Although I can see the difficulty to write something all new in a 10+ years narrative without feeling like an odd retcon. Still, I'd rather see them try something different.

I suppose it can't be said this early if this storyline is completely unforeshadowed as it hasn't yet begun in earnest, but given the way the story has developed since ARR I foresee that it will take the form of more additive 'retcons' that offer additional context for existing criteria much along the lines of the finer details of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict or aetherology or even Ascians. I've seen the complaint that the 'Ancients are ultimately responsible for everything' beat has kind of reduced the setting, and I don't disagree in a broad sense, but I still think it may be counting the hens before they hatch to just assume this is ontologically true of everything on Etheirys, or that nothing escaped the Ancients' attention, or that nothing else was going on in the whole broader universe that we know was actively inhabited. Hell, there's even a sidequest in Amaurot where a group of citizens are discussing a whole separate society on the other side of the world during the time of the Final Days. One even objects to the principle of helping them at all since it would be an affront to this other society's sovereignty. So, all of this to say, there are plenty of other avenues already in the text, even if reading the tea leaves makes one outcome particularly striking.