Was BLM not enough?

[Aidorouge]

How much more Job 'flavour' has to be burned on the pyre of accessibility, to make the Encounter Design functional for all Jobs in a role? How about SE considers going back to Encounter Design that doesn't have such inflexibility in its resolution? BLM had like, negative mobility in HW, no Triplecast, no Paradox instantcast, no Despair, and losing Enochian was FAR easier to do by accident, and FAR more punishing back then compared to something like EW, or pre-7.2 DT. And yet, despite this lack of mobility, it waas able to clear something like A7S with the big rolling ball you had to dodge, or A9S where you have to move around the arena to dodge which platform is going to sink into the lava pool. So maybe SE should stop changing Jobs to suit Encounters, and start considering that their Encounters don't suit the Jobs?

Even if Square-Enix wanted to go back and redo encounters, would players find that acceptable or just complain harder? Keep in mind this is the same community that howls in anguish every time they go back and change a dungeon to work with NPCs, and that's NORMAL content. I can't imagine the complete riots that would break out if Square-Enix dared to go back and alter high-end content to be "simplified" in exchange for making jobs complex again.

People apparently do not want a "easy/hard" mix (and certainly not "easy/easy"), they only want "hard/hard" regardless how much it would crater the playerbase.

And before someone starts crying out "BUT MY XYZ FAVORITE OLD EXPANSION WASN'T LIKE THAT, IT HAD PERFECT ENCOUNTER AND JOB DESIGN" you need to realize that if the game truly were so perfect back then, they would have changed NOTHING and we would still be playing with level 50, 60 or 70 kits and no new mechanics because they would have already achieved MMO nirvana or whatever. People can keep bringing up the "was falling asleep" quote from Yoshi-P about Endwalker, but clearly there were things he didn't like about ARR/HW/STB/SHB's fights and jobs too if he went through such great lengths to remove those elements with every patch.

I'm not rightly sure who they're trying to make the game for anymore if casuals and hardcores alike have nothing but complaints, and I don't really believe that "hard jobs/easy fights" will fix the issue so much as make the same people complain about something else.

And no, I don't have a solution because:

1. I'm not paid to fix the small indie dev's problems.
2. People would just endlessly argue that their solution is the "correct" one instead.

[ForsakenRoe]

Even if Square-Enix wanted to go back and redo encounters, would players find that acceptable or just complain harder? Keep in mind this is the same community that howls in anguish every time they go back and change a dungeon to work with NPCs, and that's NORMAL content. I can't imagine the complete riots that would break out if Square-Enix dared to go back and alter high-end content to be "simplified" in exchange for making jobs complex again.

People apparently do not want a "easy/hard" mix (and certainly not "easy/easy"), they only want "hard/hard" regardless how much it would crater the playerbase.

If simplifying an old dungeon so that Trusts can do them changes the dungeon's mechanics from 'easy' to 'even easier', then yeh, you're right in the second half. Because it goes from Easy Job/Easy Dungeon, to Easy Job/Easier Dungeon. The balance is already incredibly skewed, and so people fear the removal of what little 'interesting design' there is remaining. The old dungeon designs served as a sort of 'time capsule', of how things used to be

In other words, if we had more depth to the Job kit, the reduction of Encounter complexity in such a case (reworking old dungeon to allow Trusts to function within it) would not hit as hard

Consider a 1-10 scale for Job depth, and Encounter complexity, for a total of 20 points. We're at like a 2 for Jobs in some cases, and let's call it a 3 for Encounter complexity in the recent example of Aurum Vale. Reducing that to a 2 for the sake of the Trusts, is effectively taking that 5/20 score down to a 4/20, a 20% reduction in complexity. When the overall complexity is already so low, any small change feels like it has a massive impact. Now let's consider trying to be optimal as a SCH in a HW EX roulette, say, speedrunning Xelphatol for your Weekly Tomes. Juggling DOTs, placing Shadowflare in good positions to hit as many mobs as possible, combo'ing Faerie actions such as buffing Whispering Dawn with Rouse and Fey Illumination, etc. That, while optional (you could clear, albeit slower, by focusing on healing and not being a tryhard), would have been like... let's call it an 8, because Cleric Stance was kinda jank. In such a case, Xelphatol being a 3 still resulted in the potential for someone to enjoy 11/20 gameplay, by pushing their chosen Job to its limits. Someone who preferred to play more conservatively/more relaxed/didn't have the confidence/whatever reason, could instead play SCH at a 3/10 or so and enjoy a 6/20 experience, which is more their speed. And if Xelphatol had to be changed to fit Trusts at some point, and was reduced from a 3 to a 2, the 11/20 enjoyer would be knocked down to a 10/20, a reduction of 9ish% instead of the previous example's 20%.

Furthermore, the 6/20 player could think 'hmm, now that mechanics are simpler, I have more time to try and incorporate more optimizations into my gameplay', and push back from the 5/20 the changes left them at, up to a 6/20 again by leveraging more of the Job's depth

I'm not rightly sure who they're trying to make the game for anymore if casuals and hardcores alike have nothing but complaints, and I don't really believe that "hard jobs/easy fights" will fix the issue so much as make the same people complain about something else.

And no, I don't have a solution because:

1. I'm not paid to fix the small indie dev's problems.
2. People would just endlessly argue that their solution is the "correct" one instead.

Can't speak for everyone, nor for every role, but I can speak to what I'd like to see with Healers: A low skill floor, high skill ceiling, wherein each Healer has a certain baseline performance from pressing their filler spell, and optional optimizations on top for those who want to push their Job to the limit. For a SCH example, pressing Broil 48 times in a row as your 2min 'rotation' would be, by maths I've previously done, 97% of the damage output of optimally juggling the 3 DOTs I'd give the SCH (and 98% of the effectiveness of playing the current SCH 'optimally', which would be 44 Broils and 4 Bios). It would also, however, be much less mobile due to the cast times of using only Broil, so even someone who absolutely cannot stand DOTs at all, would probably still use them, if only as a mobility tool. But the point is, someone who doesn't want to press Shadowflare, or Miasma, would not need to. They could clear any content in the game, yes even an Ultimate, without pressing a single GCD DOT.

I do have a solution (for Healers), I am not paid to fix the multidollar company's problems either (but I've given my designs as 'feedback' of sorts, in the place they told me to, which is here), and I assume that someone would argue that my designs would not work for whatever reason, but I've yet to see someone come up with an actual reason they wouldn't work beyond 'I don't want to be forced to do all this extra gameplay', not realizing that the whole point of the designs is that you're not forced to do the extra gameplay. But you are right, I'll absolutely argue that my solution is the 'correct' one, because I don't see many other people bothering to come up with anything as a counterproposal. There seems to be a general apathy of 'well it's SE's call at the end of the day, and whatever they say goes', which is true to an extent, but I'm not a massive fan of the idea of 'just trust the devs that got the Healer role into this hole, to dig the Healer role out of the hole again' so I made my own wishlist. If people don't like what I ask for, that's up to them. Considering a lot of people ask for 'whatever SE has planned', it could be argued that I don't like what they're asking for either

But one thing I did ask for got added this patch, which can be seen in the above link, is in the WHM section: Plenary Indulgence granting a % Mitigation effect. In my version, it was 5% though. I won't be taking the credit because everyone and their mother has asked for WHM to have a crumb of Mitigation besides Temperance and 'Barrier but it's tied to Temperance'. Next up SE, please add Nocturnal Sect to AST again

[Aidorouge]

If simplifying an old dungeon so that Trusts can do them changes the dungeon's mechanics from 'easy' to 'even easier', then yeh, you're right in the second half. Because it goes from Easy Job/Easy Dungeon, to Easy Job/Easier Dungeon. The balance is already incredibly skewed, and so people fear the removal of what little 'interesting design' there is remaining. The old dungeon designs served as a sort of 'time capsule', of how things used to be

I seriously doubt anyone misses having to stand in crystal light or magitek buttons for Dzemael Darkhold (if anything I had people exclaiming their relief that it wasn't necessary now). And while I haven't played the new Aurum Vale, most players went above and beyond to skip as much as possible in the first room anyway, which is hilarious given how many of those same people insist on full-pull rushrushrush gameplay and yet cower at a room full of mobs ready to be gathered up with no walls. (Conversely, some of those same people never cease to whine about Cutter's Cry NOT allowing them to skip 1/3 of the dungeon anymore.)

In that regards, it sounds less like people care about job complexity but run efficiency, and just ASSUME having more buttons to press will "make things go faster" in the normal content that most of them seem to loathe doing anyway. (Case in point, the constant demands to see Crystal Tower thrown out of alliance raid roulette.)

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

But those complaints asking for CT raid to be thrown out aren't asking for raids to be made more 'efficient'/faster? I'm failing to see why this deserves a mention. I personally want them out because they pop up way too much times in a space where there is little intrinsic gain to look forward. People become this overtly 'reward centric' because devs had been shaving away more and more of the intrinsic satisfaction in favor of shallow extrinsic rewards. No wonder they draw in people who 'hates' playing the game; it's just an 'obstacle' for them to get to the end goal.

[Aidorouge]

But those complaints asking for CT raid to be thrown out aren't asking for raids to be made more 'efficient'/faster? I'm failing to see why this deserves a mention. I personally want them out because they pop up way too much times in a space where there is little intrinsic gain to look forward. People become this overtly 'reward centric' because devs had been shaving away more and more of the intrinsic satisfaction in favor of shallow extrinsic rewards. No wonder they draw in people who 'hates' playing the game; it's just an 'obstacle' for them to get to the end goal.

It's relevant in the sense that the reason it pops so much is because its the only alliance raid people are required to unlock, and for many people its the ONLY one they unlock, sometimes on purpose to make sure they don't get dragged into doing Mhach or beyond. Same way how some people only unlock the first couple of Alexander raids to get access to its roulette and nothing more. As the saying goes, people will optimize the fun out of everything, and for some people that includes rigging the roulettes in their favor because they care more about getting done quickly, not because they care about being able to showcase "skill expression" in a piece of level 50 content.

For that matter, if job complexity became a thing, the other alliance raids past Crystal Tower would likely be "dumbed down" to its level (or hell, even lower) because Square-Enix insists on an "easy/hard" split when it comes to jobs and fights, and then we would just have people complaining about any/all the alliance raids at that point.

People asking for job complexity have to be willing to accept the possibility that there could be a cost for it, because that's just how Square-Enix works, and if they think the bulk of normal content is mind-numbing now... I don't think their job is going to provide them with enough spinning plates to make up for what gets removed in the encounters. Raising the ceiling means very little if the fights don't even come up waist-high, and that's keeping in mind that it may not be limited to JUST normal content.

Pretend for a moment that Crystal Tower remains as we know it, what possible extra buttons could one be made to press that would suddenly make it riveting content? Would even just allowing people to use their level 100 kit with drastically reduced potency across the board make it any more engaging? If one does Savage and such, what difficult parts of each fight are they willing to give up in exchange for their job getting the difficulty instead?

[ForsakenRoe]

Pretend for a moment that Crystal Tower remains as we know it, what possible extra buttons could one be made to press that would suddenly make it riveting content? Would even just allowing people to use their level 100 kit with drastically reduced potency across the board make it any more engaging? If one does Savage and such, what difficult parts of each fight are they willing to give up in exchange for their job getting the difficulty instead?

(ignore the 'Aethertrail Attunement' line, that was for a SMN system)




None of these DOTs were 'A levels up into B'. You could apply Bio, Bio2 and Miasma to the enemy indepedent of each other, rather than the current game where Bio2 replaces Bio1. Additionally, SCH and AST could Cross-Class Aero from WHM, for another DOT if they chose. For AST, Aero was damage-neutral with their Malefic2 (200p) so it was used for mobility or opening up weave space (as Aero was an instantcast), while for SCH, it was a damage gain (Broil was 170p at one point)

And of course, can't forget:




See, the thing is, when we had 60 levels as our cap, but 30ish actions to learn to fill our bars with, it necessitated a lot more actions being learned in the 1-50 section of levelling. With the level cap being 100 now, but the same 30ish button limit, there's more focus on making the endgame feel like you're learning new things a lot (every 2 levels), which results in the early game for some jobs feeling empty. WHM, in particular, has an entire 12 level section of levelling where the only thing they learn is a trait that increases their damage by 10% passively. Look at something like RPR, or VPR, where their Enshroud/Reawaken, the core thing the Job is built around, doesn't unlock until 80/90 respectively, resulting in any gameplay below those levels feeling pretty bad by comparison. At least PCT gets to have Hammer and 2 of the 4 Mog/Madeen Muses (plus the Mog itself) at lower levels

This could be addressed somewhat by having lower level versions of actions, which later upgrade. For example, we were just given 'Plenary Indulgence now grants 10% mitigation effect' in this patch. Okay, that's cool. Why not have Protect come back at like, level 8 or 10, as a lower level version that only does the Mit, and not the bonus healing effect, which then upgrades to Plenary later whereupon it gains the bonus heal effect? Why not have Divine Seal return at level 40ish for WHM, providing a % increase to Healing Actions under its duration, which then upgrades later to Temperance, at which point it gains Mitigation in addition to the % Healing increase effect (causing Temperance to function as it now does)?

[Aidorouge]

See, the thing is, when we had 60 levels as our cap, but 30ish actions to learn to fill our bars with, it necessitated a lot more actions being learned in the 1-50 section of levelling. With the level cap being 100 now, but the same 30ish button limit, there's more focus on making the endgame feel like you're learning new things a lot (every 2 levels), which results in the early game for some jobs feeling empty. WHM, in particular, has an entire 12 level section of levelling where the only thing they learn is a trait that increases their damage by 10% passively. Look at something like RPR, or VPR, where their Enshroud/Reawaken, the core thing the Job is built around, doesn't unlock until 80/90 respectively, resulting in any gameplay below those levels feeling pretty bad by comparison. At least PCT gets to have Hammer and 2 of the 4 Mog/Madeen Muses (plus the Mog itself) at lower levels

This could be addressed somewhat by having lower level versions of actions, which later upgrade. For example, we were just given 'Plenary Indulgence now grants 10% mitigation effect' in this patch. Okay, that's cool. Why not have Protect come back at like, level 8 or 10, as a lower level version that only does the Mit, and not the bonus healing effect, which then upgrades to Plenary later whereupon it gains the bonus heal effect? Why not have Divine Seal return at level 40ish for WHM, providing a % increase to Healing Actions under its duration, which then upgrades later to Temperance, at which point it gains Mitigation in addition to the % Healing increase effect (causing Temperance to function as it now does)?

I assume they removed buttons because it "interfered" with combat design, and adding buttons back would mean having to revise said fights. For whatever reason, Square-Enix wants buttons presses minimized/focus on hotbars reduced for when they want people to dance around floor barf and be paying more attention to which side of their butt the boss is scratching to know where an attack is going to land.

They're unlikely to give back all those DOTs unless it comes with the caveat that the boss no longer makes you do anything that requires you to move around. In fact, that might even be WHY they changed it.

"Stacking DOTs and standing around sounds boring, let's make the player scurry and scatter instead." It's quite possibly the same logic they apply to healers in general. "Just spam your quick-healing/AOEs and let the tank help carry that load, you don't have time to cast or think, just MOVEMOVEMOVE."

Hell, nearly every job change can be zeroed down to those points: Does it interfere with mobility/take away the player's attention from the boss when they start casting? If yes, straight to the chopping block it goes. And it makes an unfortunate amount of sense because as someone else said, it's easier to balance fights around 5 roles (or 5 roles around fights rather) than 21 jobs. I'm curious if role quests dropped in the same expansion that Square-Enix started pushing jobs into those less than half a dozen boxes.