Remove the wall between the monster groups before each boss so we can pull all

[Kaurhz]

In the nicest way possible if people are arguing against allowing people to pull more (which I also agree won’t fix the problem) then do you really expect them to be able to engage with more complex trash mechanics without being overwhelmed?

Like especially from the tanks perspective whose job doesn’t change whether they pull 2 mobs or 200 mobs. Would pulling 4 packs be overwhelming but kiting and interupts or crowd control and other things like bringing mobs to specific areas or whatever idea not be overwhelming?

Like pulling 4 packs instead of 2 is literally the simplest way to increase “engagement”, if that’s overwhelming why wouldn’t any else be

It really depends on the implementation of it as anything... Under certain circumstances it may be more overwhelming than pulling 2x the monsters, under other circumstances it may not, simply because the content at that point is asking for 2 entirely separate things. It's really a subjective thing, as much as you may want to try and argue otherwise, really.

Then it also really depends on where the player is overwhelmed more than anything... Are they overwhelmed mechanically (Unlikely), are they overwhelmed as a result of DPS not using their AoE? Are they overwhelmed because the tank decided that he was going to go outside of the LoS for the healer (Happens a lot in AV), are they overwhelmed because of a gear factor?

[Burmecia]

Dungeons are a repetitive chore and this would help fix that.

Got no opinion to one direction or another, but this change would not turn dungeons' repeatitive chore-ness into anything.
Maybe super sprout healer might have spook when legend dancer zooms ahead of tank... but thats it

[Zered]

They should just add the Trust system to everything and give a dumbed down easy mode option on top and all those people who don't want to engage with combat at all can stay in the trust system and the rest of us can actually play properly

[Supersnow845]

It really depends on the implementation of it as anything... Under certain circumstances it may be more overwhelming than pulling 2x the monsters, under other circumstances it may not, simply because the content at that point is asking for 2 entirely separate things. It's really a subjective thing, as much as you may want to try and argue otherwise, really.

Then it also really depends on where the player is overwhelmed more than anything... Are they overwhelmed mechanically (Unlikely), are they overwhelmed as a result of DPS not using their AoE? Are they overwhelmed because the tank decided that he was going to go outside of the LoS for the healer (Happens a lot in AV), are they overwhelmed because of a gear factor?

If it’s so subjective that it depends on the player then the entire argument falls apart anyway because people here are saying the more mobs idea would overwhelm them but if someone suggested something else then there would be someone else coming in saying that would overwhelm them

So your argument reads like “don’t do what would overwhelm me do what would overwhelm someone else” which is the root of why discussions about content design never go anywhere in this game, because you can always find someone who is overwhelmed with any particular change.

Edit just realised you aren’t the person i was originally quoting

[Cygnia]

In our current environment I cannot see much good arising from removing the boundaries without some massive conceptual shift away from its current attempt to be big, flash and spike our adrenaline with the 'run rabbit run' mechanics overlap. It'd be on point though - a change that initially people would welcome as 'more spicy' but then once the adrenaline wears off it just becomes engaging in the same manner as watching the needle on the fuel tank drop perilously close to empty. It will keep you awake, but does it entertain?
Sometimes I wonder what XIV would have been like had Square stuck with 1.0's combat system and worked on refining the responsiveness of it (I think that was the primary issue for many players). Could it have had greater staying power over the course of several expansions?

[Kaurhz]

If it’s so subjective that it depends on the player then the entire argument falls apart anyway because people here are saying the more mobs idea would overwhelm them but if someone suggested something else then there would be someone else coming in saying that would overwhelm them

So your argument reads like “don’t do what would overwhelm me do what would overwhelm someone else” which is the root of why discussions about content design never go anywhere in this game, because you can always find someone who is overwhelmed with any particular change.

Edit just realised you aren’t the person i was originally quoting

I don't really know how you can question subjectivity of it, and then subsequently post about "But you will always find someone who is overwhelmed with a particular change" to be honest. But setting this aside, it really is subjective as ultimately they will be commanding different skills and abilities to be successful.

Personally, I don't really care which avenue they go down, I just see the general avenue of bigger pulls being the least impactful, it's not really commanding a significantly greater deal of effort for someone who is already using their kit in the first place, or for someone who understands the kit for that matter. Like, I don't really go into Stone Vigil, Doma Castle or Mt Gulg with much of a mentality or expectation change from any other dungeon that forces me at a wall all the time.

Personally, don't find it overwhelming either way, I just question the case of how effective this change of removing the wall would actually be if the goal less repetitive chore... It's not going to make the dungeons any less linear, it's only going to exacerbate the problem, since then dungeons are designed around the premise of 'no walls'.

[Supersnow845]

I can see why so many didn't care in the slightest over the lack of normal Forked Tower, and I have to wonder why Yoshi-P cares at all about making a normal mode for the next tower when they've already decided casuals are just a waste of budget and a "mistake" that needed correcting.

Any talk from Yoshi-P about "content for everyone" or wanting casuals back will be treated like the PR BS that it is going forward now that I know how he really feels about that.

This is just classical conflation that everyone who does casual content is exactly YOUR level of casual

For example my circle of friends is mostly people who used to do savage but dropped it due to be disillusioned with encounter and job design and dropped back to exclusively casual content. So we are casuals.

We disliked forked because of its entry system not necessarily because of its difficulty and we wanted a “normal” tower to keep the zone cycling properly

But that doesn’t mean we didn’t also believe that overall the change in difficulty of casual content from EW to DT was a net positive to our experience: plus people i know who still do high end content didn’t like forked either.

You are taking a complaint you have, seeing other people have the same complaint then assuming they agree with you on everything. Nobody liked forked, thay doesn’t mean everyone who didn’t like it agrees on everything else

I don't really know how you can question subjectivity of it, and then subsequently post about "But you will always find someone who is overwhelmed with a particular change" to be honest. But setting this aside, it really is subjective as ultimately they will be commanding different skills and abilities to be successful.

Personally, I don't really care which avenue they go down, I just see the general avenue of bigger pulls being the least impactful, it's not really commanding a significantly greater deal of effort for someone who is already using their kit in the first place, or for someone who understands the kit for that matter. Like, I don't really go into Stone Vigil, Doma Castle or Mt Gulg with much of a mentality or expectation change from any other dungeon that forces me at a wall all the time.

Personally, don't find it overwhelming either way, I just question the case of how effective this change of removing the wall would actually be if the goal less repetitive chore... It's not going to make the dungeons any less linear, it's only going to exacerbate the problem, since then dungeons are designed around the premise of 'no walls'.

I’m not questioning the subjectivity, I’m agreeing with it, that’s my point. There will always be someone who is overwhelmed with any particular change they make, yet a lot of people’s argument here seems to be “no don’t remove walls do x other thing” which just reads as “don’t do what overwhelms me do what overwhelms others”

I don’t even think this change would help, I’m just saying that argument premise is flawed that x change would overwhelm people and shouldn’t be implemented and they should implement y change instead when there is just as much evidence y would overwhelm a different subset of people

[DiaDeem]

Wall-to-wall dungeon design is the most horrible thing to ever happen to this game.

Dungeon pulls used to be nuanced. Focus the tank's target, be mindful of your AOE so you don't take aggro, have the NIN help manage enmity, and pulling everything wasn't about pulling everything just for the sake of it, rather pulling everything so you could lock them out the boss arena.

We had the option to play methodically, fast, kill everything for XP, ignore enemies for a faster clear... but then Wall-to-wall took over and every dungeon now is just sprinting like headless chickens and spamming AOE mindlessly like an enraged ape.

It's so boring, it's so horrible, and if there was ONE thing I could change from this game, I'd remove wall-to-wall dungeon design outright. You ran too far ahead of your healer? Enemies get buffed and you get one shot. The DPS thinks they're cute and pulled ahead of everyone? One-shot. I'd gut AOE abilities and bring back enmity management.

Fuck wall-to-wall gameplay.

[Supersnow845]

Wall-to-wall dungeon design is the most horrible thing to ever happen to this game.

Dungeon pulls used to be nuanced. Focus the tank's target, be mindful of your AOE so you don't take aggro, have the NIN help manage enmity, and pulling everything wasn't about pulling everything just for the sake of it, rather pulling everything so you could lock them out the boss arena.

We had the option to play methodically, fast, kill everything for XP, ignore enemies for a faster clear... but then Wall-to-wall took over and every dungeon now is just sprinting like headless chickens and spamming AOE mindlessly like an enraged ape.

It's so boring, it's so horrible, and if there was ONE thing I could change from this game, I'd remove wall-to-wall dungeon design outright. You ran too far ahead of your healer? Enemies get buffed and you get one shot. The DPS thinks they're cute and pulled ahead of everyone? One-shot. I'd gut AOE abilities and bring back enmity management.

Fuck wall-to-wall gameplay.

That’s got near nothing to do with wall to wall, that’s the devs completely stripping nuance out of the support’s kit’s

[Shistar]

I 100% agree with this. There was a thread a few months back titled 'Here We Go Again' about people who were having issues with the raised difficulty. What happened? People stormed in, mostly from what I can tell raiders, saying things like 'git gud' and 'bye, we won't miss you'. And yes, I admit that I greatly dislike the direction the dungeons have gone too, its too fast and too chaotic for some, and not everyone has an instant reaction to attacks (I STILL have issues with Second Walk boss attacks, one i flat out DON'T UNDERSTAND and no matter what I do, can't comprehend it)

People say 'you're level 100, do whats expected of you' 'Use trusts then', or 'Stop playing, you're the reason the game sucks to begin with' Why? WHY do we have to push each other down instead of raising them up to help? What happened to civil conversations and sharing ideas and tactics? All i've seen on the forums for the past few months is just constant complaining or outright fighting. It should never come down to an 'us vs them' mentality. Ever. We're all players of a game, of a franchise we enjoy, yes?

There were many users who went out of their way to explain mechanics piece by piece, with pictures and videos, so long as the struggling users asked (even without them asking sometimes) and many others, me included, were up to literally running the content with them even if it was just to prevent them from getting stuck there for too long. For every player saying horrible things, there was another willing to help.
What I struggle to understand is that some people refuse this help and sometimes can even be rude about it and throw odd accusations (what does it matter if I run ultimates or sit and gpose all day in my free time? Does my choice of content make me less genuine, somehow?)... many of us want to help you, some may have more tact when saying it than others, but it's not possible to help those who don't want to be helped.

Maybe it is because of the way I played when I was a sprout, I had people that helped and guided me along the way as needed, but I don't see an issue with accepting help and advice and seeking to improve or at least get the bare minimum the game demands of me done so I can continue. I genuinely want to know what stops them from doing what would benefit them if what they want is to continue the story...

Many would bring up that it makes them feel worthless, lesser-than, etc. guys, you can hire mercs if free cooperation is not your jam. If you don't want people's "pity" (it's not pity, we genuinely want to help you out T-T it's a cooperative game and you getting through the content benefits everyone involved) you can just pay them if it makes you feel like there's an equivalent exchange going on there. There's mercs for anything under the sun, you just have to open a PF for it.