Are we expecting TO MUCH from 8.0?

[FeyFavilla]

Maybe I misunderstood you but...
As much as I disliked the 7.0 story, the WoL being more than just an observer is what made the story actually what it was in the first place.
The player character mattering is what made the story hit home for people.
DT showed that a good chunk of people do not want their character to play second fiddle but want the final fantasy feeling.

The last thing I want is FFxiv to follow the WoW story telling.
FFxiv can and should learn a good number of things from the competition yes, but for the story it should stay true to itself because frankly if it turns into WoW 2.0 in that regard I am done with it.
I want the game to change in certain places and take risks but I still want it to feel like the game I originally started in, a final fantasy game regarding the story.

Oh no you are right, that is exactly what was a major problem with the DT MSQ. I also felt massively sidelined.
The difference is, and that was all I was trying to point out, that in WoW the player is not canon. The WoL is, in contrast, literally the main character. The entire story of FFXIV is based around them.
WoW lore is simply told differently in its entirety and even if the MSQ suffers there is always flavor to be found in places. It was more about the general statement that WoW has shitty storytelling, which I just can't agree with as someone who was hugely into its lore and worldbuilding.

That said, I would never ask for FFXIV's storytelling to be changed. It would just not work with the way the whole story structure is set up and with how, as you already instantly clocked, players feel about actually mattering as an individual. I did not mean to insinuate I would prefer this game do its MSQ how WoW does it. I'd probably drop it too in that case because then I may as well go back to WoW, what would even be the point anymore.

Sometimes it is nice feeling like you belong in this group you have spent hours upon hours with and being acknowledged for all of the things the PC has achieved. It's a good formula that creates a solid bond for the player with the game, but as we have seen with DT that can also backfire insanely hard if you are left feeling like "Why am I even here? There's a million more important things to do".

[Absurdity]

I believe this is largely in part due to the severe dumbing down of jobs and the sharp increase of content difficulty compared to normal mode. The current justification for jobs being so bare bones and brainless is because the high end content is as hard as it is. But what happens when someone hasn't ever played any of the harder content and goes through a baby mode story playing a baby mode job and then tries to do the hard stuff? They hit a brick wall. I have been playing this game since 2.0 open beta and while there's always been bad players (and always will be) I have never seen such a wide rift between the good and bad ones as we have now and I absolutely blame this on the way difficulty is handled.

It absolutely is to an extent due to them dumbing down the jobs and putting all of the difficulty into fight mechanics.
I don't think players have necessarily gotten worse, it's that those that are bad at executing mechanics are now simply brick walling everyone else. The disparity became more obvious because the consequences are that much more apparent, it's no longer just that one player dying but instead everyone.

In older fights you could compensate for a player that wasn't very good at their job by getting better gear or simply playing better yourself to still meet the damage/healing/health threshold requirement.
And you could compensate for someone who wasn't very good at mechanics by simply dragging their corpse through the parts they couldn't do if you still had the DPS to beat enrage.

But now that everything is about executing the "mechanics dance" perfectly there is little you can do to compensate. Everyone has to do them and if someone fails it most likely results in a wipe because the mechanics that people struggle with are not only more difficult in their execution but also the ones that will flat out wipe the party.
This means that a single weak link can bring your progress to a complete standstill and that quickly becomes a miserable experience.

[SkizzleAbernath]

Stopped raiding last tier and I've been very happy about it so far. Not everybody is interested into every piece of content. Expecting people to all go for extremes/savage+ isn't very far off expecting everybody to go for ranked pvp or mahjong to me.

This is an ongoing problem for people who can't think outside the WoW-Refugee formula. When you come from older MMORPGs you understand very well that there's more to an MMORPG than just endgame raiding. When you follow the logic of replies not just in this thread but others within the forums, it’s always the raiding selling point as if nothing else can be brought to the table to convince you why you should play FFXIV.

[Shistar]

Extreme is doable with Party Finder. Savage requires statics that know what the ffff they're doing.

I disagree. People do all sorts of content on PF all the time. The real issue with PF is that it's DC-locked and that it dies in after the fourth week really badly. But not even Ultimates require a static, it's just for convenience (or extra torture depending on how many clows you've got in there)

I will likely never experience the new Quantum boss. And I also missed the boat on Chaotic last year because I took a few months break around Christmas last year. I really wanted THAT minion, too! Still do!

If it helps in any way, you haven't actually missed the boat; they just moved to organizing groups over Discord once the PF died down. It kinda sucks if your schedule doesn't line up with theirs, but at least in EU there's 2-3 different servers all organizing runs fairly often, even for complete newbies or mid-prog. I can't tell you any exactly since you're on NA and I'm on EU, but Google and Reddit are good spots to begin searching.

I am willing to bet that those PF parties are very tuned on their PF requirements so the barriers are still there, just in a different form.

I might be misunderstanding this, but nothing really stops you from prog-lying like it was said before (although it will be extremely obvious to everyone else). The only "barrier" is waiting for the community to settle on a guide, for EU it's typically Hector or some raidplan, and you're golden. The first week or two in PF is pure chaos because you have 3 raidplans, Hector, Kobe, some dude that came out of the woodwork and someone pulling out JP strats out of his hat, but you can still clear fine and it gets really streamlined after that first week or two. I'm not saying it can't be frustrating because it is, but it's also the nature of playing with completely random people. You get terrorists at all content difficulties lol
The real barrier is the waiting time. Depending on the content, you might actually be sitting there, waiting, for hours. Unable to do anything that would put you in a duty. It sucks.

I myself have cleared content via PF many times over the years but every single time it has never ONCE been an enjoyable experience. At the end of the day, this is a video game. Should the higher end content be easy? No, but the difficulty should be -enjoyable-. Trying to herd a gaggle of PF randoms through savage and even EXs on some occasion is the opposite of enjoyable. It's such a miserable experience I haven't done it once this entire expansion yet and now only bother if the tier has something I really want such as a unique piece of gear I desire for glam.

Although I perfectly understand where you come from, I've had a nearly opposite experience. When PF works, it's a dream. Statics are much more complicated in my experience...
Admittedly I haven't been in the Savage scene for a hot second (what the hell is the Arcadion glam??) but I find most fights enjoyable when your teammates aren't sniffing crayons between pulls. I have so many nice memories of Anabaseios and so, so many memes from UWU PF.
My only real issue with PF is that having it be DC-locked instead of Region-locked makes things really annoying if you have to wait a long time for your group to fill on top of being away from your home world already. I can't decorate my house or even AFK in it while I wait, I can't check my retainers, I can't do much of anything, really; and I'm not contributing to Light's population by standing in the middle of some ghost settlement because I'm trying not to torture my potato PC. I'd just love to be able to stay in Chaos.

[Hyperia]

When I have watched successful clears on streams, I used to hear thunderous cheering but as of late, all I hear is people sighing and saying “thank god is over”. That in itself is a problem with difficulty, you should be happy you finished and not thankful that you have been released from a burden.

I really think that the devs need to dial it down, it’s ok to reuse mechanics if they are fun. Constantly having to create something that is new and innovative can strip the fun out of content because most of the fun stuff has already been done.

I used to be in a static before I had my child, but now my playtime is not that structured anymore. When I have two hours to play, I want to play and not waste two hours in PF hoping to find a capable group.

As to raid plans, it sounds wonderful but I am an experiential learner, I can watch videos and look at pretty pictures all day, but I won’t learn until I do it. Most PFs of the past did not have any patience for how I learn and that’s why PFs are something I am uncomfortable using.

Also, I main WHM, sorry, not sorry.

[Shistar]

I used to be in a static before I had my child, but now my playtime is not that structured anymore. When I have two hours to play, I want to play and not waste two hours in PF hoping to find a capable group.

We agree on that.

As to raid plans, it sounds wonderful but I am an experiential learner, I can watch videos and look at pretty pictures all day, but I won’t learn until I do it. Most PFs of the past did not have any patience for me learning so that’s why PF is something I am uncomfortable using.

Blind PFs are a thing you can create, that exist, and that I see filling fairly often. It takes longer to fill which gets in the way of your first point, but if you want this type of experience you have to compromise somewhere. Either waiting in PF or a more structured time with static, I'm afraid.
The good thing about week 1/2 PF is that everyone is blind so you'll get that experience like it or not lol

Also, I main WHM, sorry, not sorry.

What does this have to do with anything? I see WHMs everywhere, I play it too. Anyone telling you to leave because of your job (unless regen spot is already taken) could be reported for it.

[ForteNightshade]

100%. I'm tired of this gap between Extreme and Savage content.

Extreme is doable with Party Finder. Savage requires statics that know what the ffff they're doing.

I'd like to see more content that falls within that Extreme, preferably 4-player content.

It's not Criterion content either, the difficulty of that is about Tier 3 Savage.

But why can't Occult Crescent have a harder difficulty than slap an enemy once and get credit? Wasn't Eureka a lot harder?

As someone who cleared everything up to M8 phase 1 in PF, including FRU. I disagree entirely. Can PF be frustrating? Oh heck yes. I have far too many pulls in M6S because people couldn't do adds week 1. That being said, it's very doable if you're willing to stick with it.

What I often find is people expect a faster clear and get upset when it takes several hours to prog. Which, hey, fair enough if you're schedule doesn't permit lengthily sessions. But that's the real trade off between PF and statics.

When I have watched successful clears on streams, I used to hear thunderous cheering but as of late, all I hear is people sighing and saying “thank god is over”. That in itself is a problem with difficulty, you should be happy you finished and not thankful that you have been released from a burden.

I really think that the devs need to dial it down, it’s ok to reuse mechanics if they are fun. Constantly having to create something that is new and innovative can strip the fun out of content because most of the fun stuff has already been done.

I used to be in a static before I had my child, but now my playtime is not that structured anymore. When I have two hours to play, I want to play and not waste two hours in PF hoping to find a capable group.

As to raid plans, it sounds wonderful but I am an experiential learner, I can watch videos and look at pretty pictures all day, but I won’t learn until I do it. Most PFs of the past did not have any patience for how I learn and that’s why PFs are something I am uncomfortable using.

Also, I main WHM, sorry, not sorry.

Just because someone is expressing relief the "slog" is over doesn't mean they didn't enjoy it. The day I cleared FRU was probably the biggest roll coaster of emotions I've ever heard in this game. I went from three 0.2% wipes to an acquittance I met in PF putting together a party to help me clear only for her and her friend to be on jobs they weren't ready to play at an Ultimate level. So we never made it past phase three. To say that was soul crushing would be an understatement. I literally screamed to the whole of my apartment building. Four hours later, I got into a proper group thanks to Sausage Rolls clear squad and finally beat it in three pulls. That said scream was both relief and joy I was "finally free"

While I wouldn't necessarily want to go through all that again. I did actually enjoy a lot of the prog prior to that day. Meeting people, vibing to the fights and etc.

Making the fights easier takes away from the experience to some degree. I wouldn't be anywhere near as satisfied with FRU if they toned it down more than it already is. Case in point, while beating Wicked Thunder week 1 was exciting. It didn't last because her DPS check is so comically forgiving. But I'm also someone who will go out of their way to install difficulty mods in games like BG3 because I enjoy the challenge. So long as it's fun. Which is, ultimately, subjective.

[Drimn]

While I am also side-eyeing Microsoft for shoving micro-transactions in the housing system please do remember that SE bleeds players in the cash shop for emotes and now individual set pieces as well. Not to mention the other big money sink in FFXIV - item storage. If there's any folks in here who are playing or have played WoW you will know that you can massively upgrade storage for each character. You have a bank - two technically - and your inventory size is determined by how big the equipped bags are.
In FFXIV you literally have to pay for retainer space and the extra chocobo slots. Monthly. It adds up. So if I can save all of that money and instead spend a tiny amount on my personal house, honestly, that is a worthwhile trade-off.

I started WoW in Wrath before dropping out for a while, then rejoined in Legion before leaving in early BfA. I know you can upgrade storage with crafted gear. If anything, when I moved to XIV, I was glad to not have to worry about throwing down money for Dreamweave bags and such and having a rather generous amount of storage right from the very beginning. I'm not a major fan of having to pay for more market board slots, but to me, it does help mitigate the kind of clowns you get on WoW's market board where they put up 99 single stacks of an item just to drown out the others trying to sell their own stuff. I personally would rather they fix undercutting than anything else involving the retainer system. It's fine for what it is, even if it's a bit of an immersion-breaker.
I spend $4 for two more retainers and I have never once had an issue storing things. My wife doesn't even do that because she's not as into crafting and gathering as I am, and she's never had an issue with storage space, either. FFXIV is rather generous, all things considered. Not perfect, but the amount of storage you get for free between two retainers and a chocobo is a really good amount, and you can get more optionally if you like.

While the actual text might not always be as well worded or cinematic as FFXIV likes to be the world's lore and history is insanely rich and interesting.

Its best days are behind it, I think everyone can agree on that. The people responsible for the vast majority of that lore are either retired or left the industry in disgrace thanks to the Cosby Room controversy. What they created was honestly really, really deep for a video game lore-wise, and it's a shame to see what's become of it as of late. Even then, the world doesn't update with the occurrences that happen in the story, and the head dev basically admitted that zones are meant to be consumed and disposed of. They've all become ways to facilitate raiding.
I do really wish FFXIV would place more emphasis on world building to help flesh out the story some. I like Ishikawa's work, but a criticism I've seen of her is that she gets far too wrapped up in characters and neglects anything resembling world-building, and it's hard to dispute that. ARR, for all of its flaws, did a decent job of setting up the world around us, in that it gave us three distinct cultures grappling with a bunch of second- and third-order effects of the plot. It showed, and didn't tell, like you said. We haven't had anything resembling world-building since Stormblood. Look at the Azim Steppe and look at all of Tural. That one zone has more thought put into its backstory than an entire expac and continent did.
And I don't want to hear about FFXIV selling cosmetics being "consumer-unfriendly" when WoW literally integrated RMT into their business model with their WoW token stunt.

[FeyFavilla]

(...) the kind of clowns you get on WoW's market board where they put up 99 single stacks of an item just to drown out the others trying to sell their own stuff. (...)

Its best days are behind it, I think everyone can agree on that.(...)

Blizz did actually fix this by condensing AH listings. Any item will be shown for their prices only and how many are available. Even if one person lists 500 of one item it is only one listing now, and even if they list a full stack you can buy only 5 of them. That problem was solved a long time ago, shortly before I left, so I suspect you were not around to witness it. Another point to them actually listening to community gripes.

(...)Its best days are behind it, I think everyone can agree on that.(...)

I heavily disagree. While BfA was a massive blunder and SL's MSQ was an absolute joke the many side areas were interesting and lively still and I always enjoyed witnessing the little dramas beside the main plot. Legion alone was a bloody masterpiece. There were a few small things I disliked, as any would in an MMO, but the entire setup was amazing and had just as many or more touching moments in it than I have seen in FFXIV expansions.
Granted, I cannot speak for the current state of things since I have been out of the game for a while but there is plenty to love still.

Lastly, the tokens, while controversial, allow people who do not want to spend money to play for free as long as they can maintain the monthly ingame gold. I am sorry but that is a straight up benefit. And if someone wants to spend the money to get more gold in a legitimate, controlled way, that is not an issue either. The system literally prevents gold sellers from getting too much of a foothold in the game and WoW has been insanely good about preventing RMT for years. Unlike FFXIV. It does still happen but they clap the bots with a swiftness.

[Andanie]

My expectations are in the ground but I'm sure xiv will find a way to tank them.
Idk if it's budget, stubbornness, or a mix of both but I am just endlessly disappointed.
I'm juuuuust attached enough to the pixels that make my house to stay but with WoW housing might change that.