A MSQ where we lose to the bad guys

[Tsiron]

part of me now wishes 6.X had ended with Zeromus actually successfully tearing down what keeps the reflections apart and the story would go straight into trying to unfuck that situation

[Picothea]

Whilst I feel this could be interesting if done right, I'm not sure how well some players would react to it.

I'm immediately reminded of how some players were so bitter that the Warrior of Light's initial fight against Zenos in "In Crimson It Began" ended with the WoL getting their arse kicked. [...] That scripted defeat was part of the MSQ as a whole - and there were players who couldn't tolerate that.

This would be my main concern as well. A story where the heroes take a loss for the day can be very interesting and lead to fantastic stories (I always think of Empire Strikes Back and the fans' unending love for it), but there's also a lot FFXIV players who will fiercely resist change in any direction. Hell, a substantial amount of players didn't even want to have the reading puzzle in 7.3.
There's a lot of valid complaints to make about the game, but unfortunately, a lot of these issues exist because there's an opposing part of the playerbase who demanded it. And we're definitely going to see pushback the instant the Warrior of Light is shown as a fallible figure who doesn't win every battle.

I support this suggestion, though! It has a lot of potential.

[CNitsah]

Whilst I feel this could be interesting if done right, I'm not sure how well some players would react to it.

I'm immediately reminded of how some players were so bitter that the Warrior of Light's initial fight against Zenos in "In Crimson It Began" ended with the WoL getting their arse kicked. Yes, I know it was a forced defeat etc etc - I've read arguments around that more times than I can count; but therein lays my point. That scripted defeat was part of the MSQ as a whole - and there were players who couldn't tolerate that.

More than the fact we lost, I feel this reaction came from how it was done.

Zenos came from nowhere at a point you defeated a man boosted with the power of the eye and one thousand years of prayers and one of the first brood that even death couldn't kill. Then come the guy out of nowhere, and not only did he beat you, but he crushed you like you were nothing.

Everything in that fight sent the message that nothing previous to that fight mattered. This whole fight break both the immersion and the world building. Losing is one thing, but telling at that point in the story you're useless. You could have lost while putting a decent fight and allowing your allies to flee and survive, but no, everything in that fight show Zenos is far beyond you, and it makes no sense for the empire to have such overpowered beings and still not have conquered Eorzea. It makes no sense you're as useless as the everyday soldier.

This scene is the antithesis of that EW scene in Sharlayan's haven, where you're everything you did mattered.

I think the Ranjit scene, while conceptually the same was far better. The fact it was another reflection made it more plausible for such a powerhouse to exist and the fight was scripted but not one-sided

For "into the cold" I feel too many people pput it on say people didn't like it because of the wol being weak, but I feel like a lot of people had a problem with the lack of indication. Or with the whole bodysnatching thing. I know I stoped playing for a few days after that, and even when did a ng+, this scene made me nauseous. It's really a weird feeling I never felt with any other game, but getting your body stolen by the king of creep wasn't my cup of tea.

[RedLolly]

For "into the cold" I feel too many people pput it on say people didn't like it because of the wol being weak, but I feel like a lot of people had a problem with the lack of indication. Or with the whole bodysnatching thing. I know I stoped playing for a few days after that, and even when did a ng+, this scene made me nauseous. It's really a weird feeling I never felt with any other game, but getting your body stolen by the king of creep wasn't my cup of tea.

Into the Cold had the added issue if being a labyrinth on purpose. You weren't just extremely weak, you were lost in a giant area of identical architecture. More players had issues finding their way to the next bit to move the events forward than actually living. That's why it was nerfed right away. The devs saw it was a bit too much and toned it down. I managed to do it pre-nerf, but I think I got lucky on the maze half of that quest, and I sure as hell needed a few tries.

And being grossed the hell out by the body snatching was the point. I hate Zenos. He defiled us and tried to use the love we have between our friends to kill them. It was absolutely framed as a *blank* assault to me. Hate hate hated him. Us bouncing back is really just another example of how unflappable the WoL is when they have a goal.

[Kozh]

More players had issues finding their way to the next bit to move the events forward than actually living. That's why it was nerfed right away. The devs saw it was a bit too much and toned it down. I managed to do it pre-nerf, but I think I got lucky on the maze half of that quest, and I sure as hell needed a few tries.

To this day I still can't understand why people have trouble with it. First, it's not that bad/difficult. Second, if you fail, you can just replay it?? I actually run out of time the first time so I have to redo it. But is it something that's so unacceptable for people?
It is weird for me because this game is an MMO where we get to do trials and raids, and it's perfectly normal to wipe (even multiple time). Shouldn't the players already get used to retries? I can understand if it's a very long solo quest with no check point, but it isn't either.

[Kozh]

Anyway back to topic, yes I definitely want this to happen. It's actually one of my top 3 wish for the story.

Since I know a lot of players can't cope with the WoL losing fight, I think "win the battle but lose the war" approach would be the best. Also, some scenarios I can think of are like these:
1. The WoL is only one person and can't be everywhere simultaneously.
2. The WoL misjudged/miscalculated the situation and the bad guy gets the upper hand in the end.
3. Put us in middle of conflict where both sides are both right and wrong.

4. While this isn't "vs bad guy", I would be okay with scenario where we can't really do anything since the "enemies" are force of nature. Or perhaps incurable disease.

Regardless though, it's all useless if the writing isn't good. My main concern if the loss we suffer is written like in EW (very glossed over, only exist to push the theme without any subtlety and nuance) or DT (minor town NPCs whom we barely interact with getting killed, the character amd story get over it quickly).

One last thing, x.0 typically ends in positive note, right? We end the main bad guy, everyone cheers, etc. Now what if the expansion end in bittersweet or somber way?

[Shinku_Tachi]

We did that it was called Stormblood nobody liked it.

Exactly!

Though what's happening now is, like with Wind Waker on Gamecube, many years later, people are coming to terms with the reality that Stormblood was actually pretty damn good. Maybe not Heavensward good, but still *really* freakin good.

[Kozh]

Anything new to the formular would be great.

One of my biggest complaints is that we drag the scions around still, despite the fact you know they're going to be fine, Shadowbringers was nice because they took them in a interesting direction, but I feel as if anything you can do with them in the modern era they will just remain invincible and not really have much plot relevance

I just want this game to take risks again, both with the gameplay and the story, until then it will be predictable and boring

As much as I am going to miss them, we really do need to ditch the scions. The cast is getting too big anyway. Out of all of them, I think thancred and estinien are the most okay to bring along. Estinien because while he's strong af, he's no scholar. Thancred, while is an archon, is specialized in spy/survival (unlike ystholla and urianger), plus he's nerfed too (unable to access aether).

[Carin-Eri]

More than the fact we lost, I feel this reaction came from how it was done.

Zenos came from nowhere at a point you defeated a man boosted with the power of the eye and one thousand years of prayers and one of the first brood that even death couldn't kill. Then come the guy out of nowhere, and not only did he beat you, but he crushed you like you were nothing.

Everything in that fight sent the message that nothing previous to that fight mattered. This whole fight break both the immersion and the world building. Losing is one thing, but telling at that point in the story you're useless. You could have lost while putting a decent fight and allowing your allies to flee and survive, but no, everything in that fight show Zenos is far beyond you, and it makes no sense for the empire to have such overpowered beings and still not have conquered Eorzea. It makes no sense you're as useless as the everyday soldier.

This scene is the antithesis of that EW scene in Sharlayan's haven, where you're everything you did mattered.

I've seen this line of reasoning all too often and I've never agreed with it.

The fact that the Warrior of Light finally encountered something or someone capable of knocking them on the arse was the whole point and was, in my opinion, a sorely needed development for both story AND character.
As you say - we'd beaten everything and everyone we'd faced to that point. It's also worth noting that the WoL, at that point in the story was still someone the Scions viewed more as a weapon to point at the big threats.

I LIKED how they wrote all this - the narrative had the Warrior of Light at a point of self-assured almost-overconfidence. We, as players, were feeling like our "god slayer" was untouchable. And then a reality check in the form of Zenos - a far more seasoned and experienced fighter than 'us' - who knocked us on our arse without too much effort and taught the WoL a little humility - THAT'S what so many players don't like.... the fact that, at that point in the narrative, he was just flat-out better than us. As you say, we'd fought Dragons, Primals and Ascians.... but Zenos was none of those. We fought him solo in a fight where, unlike pretty much every other prior fight, we didn't benefit from Hydaelyn's gifts/Dragon-eye powerups/teamwork.

I'll always maintain that it was a great narrative step, personally.

[DPZ2]

So, the OP is calling for another "dream of the Fayth" ending?

And then we can provide a Happy Ending (TM) in Final Fantasy 14-2 ...