"Aiming for the Game to be Reborn for the 2nd time" - YoshiP Interview

[YumieYumiki]

We've also been getting the excuse that spaghetti code prevents the development of a lot of features players clamor for,

Did we though? I absolutely cannot tell whether the "spaghetti code" thing is real or a myth invented by players. Even if it's real and the code base is a mess, it's not necessarily the devs' fault. Management if often unwilling to give devs the necessary time and budget to deal with technical debt.

[NegativeS]

Did we though? I absolutely cannot tell whether the "spaghetti code" thing is real or a myth invented by players. Even if it's real and the code base is a mess, it's not necessarily the devs' fault. Management if often unwilling to give devs the necessary time and budget to deal with technical debt.

Well, after working and living with back end developers for most of my life, I am confident enough in saying that technical debt so bad that nobody can change it without breaking everything is, unironically, a skill issue. One that no other company seems to have with as much frequency as CBU3 seems to.

Then again, we did just get confirmation for universal glam after being told that spaghetti prevented it for years, so maybe that was just a huge lie.

Either way, I have no problem with firing a bunch of managers and directors instead of the ground floor keyboard jockeys. Something needs to change, urgently, so start from the top, work your way down, and see what sticks.

[YumieYumiki]

Well, after working and living with back end developers for most of my life, I am confident enough in saying that technical debt so bad that nobody can change it without breaking everything is, unironically, a skill issue. One that no other company seems to have with as much frequency as CBU3 seems to.

Being an actual video game programmer (on a live service game) I can tell you, from my direct, personal experience spanning a couple decades, that technical debt cannot be dealt with if it's not included in planning and budgets, and that even in my current company that is fairly good at it we still need to work at convincing producers of the necessity of doing it. (and that despite our lead producer being a former programmer himself!)

Honestly, if you are not a programmer yourself, you have no business calling "skill issue" on that.

Then again, we did just get confirmation for universal glam after being told that spaghetti prevented it for years, so maybe that was just a huge lie.

???
We have been told for years that is was about "job identity", not technical reasons. One thing where they invoke technical reasons is adding glamour dressers in houses, but even that doesn't necessarily mean "spaghetti code", it could very well just mean "server architecture limitation", in itself not a sign of bad quality, just that the use case doesn't fit the existing technical design.

Either way, I have no problem with firing a bunch of managers and directors instead of the ground floor keyboard jockeys. Something needs to change, urgently, so start from the top, work your way down, and see what sticks.

My god, changing things doesn't have to involve firing anyone. It could just be management greenlighting a plan that is different than yet another iteration of the exact same expansion pack template.

[Jeeqbit]

Being an actual video game programmer (on a live service game) I can tell you, from my direct, personal experience spanning a couple decades, that technical debt cannot be dealt with if it's not included in planning and budgets, and that even in my current company that is fairly good at it we still need to work at convincing producers of the necessity of doing it. (and that despite our lead producer being a former programmer himself!)

Honestly, if you are not a programmer yourself, you have no business calling "skill issue" on that.

See, that is what I have observed. Part of me wants to conclude that they aren't good at programming (and I have programmed for decades), but a more distant, long-term observation shows that:

They always focus on the next patch. No employee labor, planning or approval goes into old content whatsoever. So any past features that could use improvement or bringing up to standard, don't get touched for years.

There are rare exceptions to this: the graphics update, old dungeon revamps, and 5 quality of life upgrades per major patch. There are so few of these that they obviously had to go through Yoshi-P's personal approval to even get development time. Any other changes to past features were without approval, and Yoshi-P informed us it was done without approval (ARR flying, viera/hrothgar head accessories).

For that reason, I believe you nailed their exact issue. They don't approve nor assign anyone to care about old content, features and patches, which gradually frustrates the playerbase who are still revisiting older features or content, or where old features are still relevant in modern content (such as battle, UI and targeting system issues).

We have been told for years that is was about "job identity", not technical reasons. One thing where they invoke technical reasons is adding glamour dressers in houses, but even that doesn't necessarily mean "spaghetti code", it could very well just mean "server architecture limitation", in itself not a sign of bad quality, just that the use case doesn't fit the existing technical design.

Agreed; we have only been told it was due to job identity and that they could easily allow it if they wanted. I've personally never seen them use spaghetti code as an excuse but rather server architecture design, and if you check my signature, you will see a link to a video where Yoshi-P denies there is any spaghetti code from 1.0.

I absolutely cannot tell whether the "spaghetti code" thing is real or a myth invented by players.

I believe it's real but I don't believe it's spaghetti code from 1.0. Rather, the modern game was built upon the back of 2.0, and it's changed a lot since 2.0, yet, 2.0 is still the stack of cards on which it was built, and some programmers have left since then.

Examples we can see of this:

• CWLS menu is separate to the Linkshell menu. Likely evidence that they could not salvage the linkshell code, so they made an entirely separate system for it.
• The game was changed to let us visit other worlds and data centers, but FCs are still world-restricted. I suspect this is due to them being tied to the housing system, which is also world-restricted. This is evidence of how 2.0's design is holding things back.
• We have numerous inventories - Armoire, Glamour Dresser, buying quest items via Calamity Salvager, Chocobo Saddlebag, Retainer, Armory Chest and the inventory itself. They all function very differently on a technical level, and merging some of them would not be a simple process, but not necessarily impossible.

All these issues could be solved with things such as database table migrations, or code that converts data upon character login. So either they never assign development resources to do so, or they don't know how.

[Shinku_Tachi]

Did we though? I absolutely cannot tell whether the "spaghetti code" thing is real or a myth invented by players. Even if it's real and the code base is a mess, it's not necessarily the devs' fault. Management if often unwilling to give devs the necessary time and budget to deal with technical debt.

"Spaghetti code" is real.

It's not a thing exclusive to 14 though, it's a thing with all MMOs, due to years and years of stacking features and systems on top of features and systems.

[Carin-Eri]

"Spaghetti code" is real.

It's not a thing exclusive to 14 though, it's a thing with all MMOs, due to years and years of stacking features and systems on top of features and systems.

Not to mention staff members familiar with said features and systems moving on to other jobs, leaving less familiar staff to take over and then move on and pass their limited knowledge onto someone else.....

Actually did see this happen with an MMO I used to play. The old guard who produced the game moved on. And then their replacements moved on. And then the gaming studio was sold and replaced the staff from the old studio with their own employees. And whether or not there is anyone left who can make sense of what they inherited is questionable.

[YumieYumiki]

Not to mention staff members familiar with said features and systems moving on to other jobs, leaving less familiar staff to take over and then move on and pass their limited knowledge onto someone else.....

Actually did see this happen with an MMO I used to play. The old guard who produced the game moved on. And then their replacements moved on. And then the gaming studio was sold and replaced the staff from the old studio with their own employees. And whether or not there is anyone left who can make sense of what they inherited is questionable.

Those are common issues with long lived projects, yes. It doesn't mean that every project fails at dealing with those issues. Don't make the mistake of believing that what you have experienced is what happens everywhere.

[brinn12]

Being an actual video game programmer (on a live service game) I can tell you, from my direct, personal experience spanning a couple decades, that technical debt cannot be dealt with if it's not included in planning and budgets, and that even in my current company that is fairly good at it we still need to work at convincing producers of the necessity of doing it. (and that despite our lead producer being a former programmer himself!)

Honestly, if you are not a programmer yourself, you have no business calling "skill issue" on that.

They implemented a blacklist system that exposed account IDs to every client, revealing everyone's alts. Being a programmer doesn't automatically mean you have the necessary oversight to understand why this kind of spaghetti code is so likely, nor does it change who's likely responsible for it.

[Araxes]

Did we though? I absolutely cannot tell whether the "spaghetti code" thing is real or a myth invented by players.

Remember the Endwalker issue where people could not login even after they reached 0 in the Line of a Loginqueue reaching up to 24000? That was a leftover Code issue from 1.0 and there may be more undiscovered issues.

Thats only one of the spaghetti code sources.

[NegativeS]

Honestly, if you are not a programmer yourself, you have no business calling "skill issue" on that.

You got me there; I'm only really a hobbyist at the end of the day.

My god, changing things doesn't have to involve firing anyone. It could just be management greenlighting a plan that is different than yet another iteration of the exact same expansion pack template.

Like that would ever happen. Shareholder values, baby!

I am so very glad it's not your kind that sits in management there.

I guess empathy is a rarity nowadays but people like you could really need a reminder that there are normal people working behind the scenes with life's and all that.
Thank God that part of the world has actual worker rights...

Eh... maybe you're right. I have been feeling overly cynical these past few weeks.

By doing so, they'd give middle finger to loyal players who have been with XIV for a long time and acquired a lot of titles, levelled a lot of jobs, farmed lots of glamours, bought a lot of mog station items, got a house, got a lot of gil and basically keep game running by being always subscribed. You can't ask these people to abandon their characters and move on to a new MMO, you will have to work with new audience, work for new audience, and attract new audience.

Can SE really do that? Something tells me not so very much.

The game would not survive such a transition, and they know that, which is why it's not what I think they're saying. This is 2025 SE, where they depend on the constant stream of revenue from this game to even continue to be considered a company. Otherwise the entire building that they're is headquartered out of would probably immediately be sundered into the wallets of ten and three prominent shareholders.

But it'd be insane to think that that's not the feeling he was trying to stir up by invoking ARR.