Bring difficulty back to job rotations, not just boss mechanics.

[Mikey_R]

People have no idea what they're talking about when they bring up pvp walked casts. They are a trap. They're not good design in pvp. They're not cancelable, which makes them inferior to actual casts of similar time. They still make you slow enough that they'll spell your doom the same way they would if they rooted you in place. In PvE it would be the exact same problem: they would not allow you to move faster out of danger, they'd be too slow to dodge anything, and what they would dodge, you could dodge with normal slide casting anyway.

Walking casts are bad, period.

If we had casts that didn't affect movement, that I could potentially support for something unique to rphys actually though.

Counter point.

If the idea is to make more jobs feel unique to play, then wouldn't adding something like this help to differentiate this one job from the rest in its group? Especially if they get given tools to help work around either the reduced movement during casts or allowing you to drop the casts altogether.

[Sunhwapark]

Especially if they get given tools to help work around either the reduced movement during casts or allowing you to drop the casts altogether.

In bodycheck DDR city, the last thing I imagine players would want is phys ranged to have even worse mobility than a DT BLM of all things.

[Mikey_R]

In bodycheck DDR city, the last thing I imagine players would want is phys ranged to have even worse mobility than a DT BLM of all things.

I do not know how you came to that conclusion at all. I made no claim about how often the job is forced to cast or how accessible the potential movement tools would be, which means that you have made a claim based on...nothing. You have just made an assumption, compared it to something else, based on nothing, then dismiss the idea with no merit.

So, why do you not want to explore this option based on it being something that could make a job more unique?

[Sunhwapark]

So, why do you not want to explore this option based on it being something that could make a job more unique?

I'm not discrediting anything, I'm fine with exploring it, but if the way to make a job unique is by applying a mobility impairment and giving them even more tools than they already have just to resolve that gimmick just sounds very similar to an already existing job - BLM. Ok. Perhaps it will have cast bars - while moving, sounds fine. Perhaps they can charge/channel these cast bars to multiple levels to enhance the potency of their actions ? I don't really know, not a job engagement designer myself.

Valence's posts bring up the issues with cast-walking in PVP already, so from that view I feel it does not need bringing across to PvE if people are proposing that iteration of a change. Valence's posts also mentions channelled abilities such as Dancer's Honing Dance, which I feel would be a good avenue for discussion - converting a skill into a 'channelled' sort of move that does not impair the walking speed of the player in battle, I hope you are able to understand the angle I am coming from.

[Mikey_R]

I'm not discrediting anything, I'm fine with exploring it, but if the way to make a job unique is by applying a mobility impairment and giving them even more tools than they already have just to resolve that gimmick just sounds very similar to an already existing job - BLM. Ok. Perhaps it will have cast bars - while moving, sounds fine. Perhaps they can charge/channel these cast bars to multiple levels to enhance the potency of their actions ? I don't really know, not a job engagement designer myself.

If your issue was that it is too close to a caster, then why did you not just say that rather than try and divert the discussion towards DDR and the amount of casting time compared to Black Mage. These are 2 very different points that have been made.

Valence's posts bring up the issues with cast-walking in PVP already, so from that view I feel it does not need bringing across to PvE if people are proposing that iteration of a change. Valence's posts also mentions channelled abilities such as Dancer's Honing Dance, which I feel would be a good avenue for discussion - converting a skill into a 'channelled' sort of move that does not impair the walking speed of the player in battle, I hope you are able to understand the angle I am coming from.

But isn't friction what people want in making jobs more interesting? If the claim is that 'there are issues', then, so does casting. Oh no, I need to move, but I forgot to Swiftcast, or I mis timed the instacast so I have to cancel my current cast, losing time there. Even melee has issues in that they can only attack the boss effectively from melee range. If you have to move away, that's an issue, so should melee have longer range to compensate?

If we now start talking about channelled abilities, that is again a separate topic, however, it is one that can be talked about. Machinist has Flamethrower as an example and many many people want it to actually be noticeably useful. Yes, no issues with that, but it isn't mutually exclusive to walking casts. It isn't one or the other, it is here are 2 different mechanics that could be incorporated into jobs to help fill out the job identity. Even looking at channelled casts, we can look at whether you are allowed to move or not to keep the channel going, or if you are able to exit the channel early one way or another etc.

So, whilst this post has helped me understand your point of view, I do wonder why you didn't just lead with this in the first place.

[Remarus]

I don't understand why, since everyone is angry at the homogenization, we still get "This class should play similarily to other classes!".
Isn't that the very mindset that leads to homogenization? Why can't MCH have its own playstyle? (Also I liked the HW MCH with the bullets system). Not to mention that Ranged is a group of jobs that benefit from (mostly) complete uptime, how would we plan out the movements when it's so freely given to us?

Not angry or anything, genuinely confused.

We have 13 DPS classes, there is guaranteed to be some overlap across the whole spectrum. At the moment, Phys Ranged has the most overlap within its own role. All three are free movement and slam the lit up skills as fast as possible with no downtime. By adding walking-casts and slowing MCH down a bit, you're increasing the skill ceiling and the skill floor in exchange for its position as top selfish DPS within its role, similar to the same treatment BLM and SAM have in their own roles of Magic and Melee. Ideally they need to look at creating identity within each Role type first and foremost and then expanding that outward. If MCH got walking casts back with a similar ammo system to HW, no one would say it plays exactly like SAM or BLM aside from the movement restriction.

[ForsakenRoe]

but isn't friction what people want in making jobs more interesting? If the claim is that 'there are issues', then, so does casting. Oh no, I need to move, but I forgot to Swiftcast, or I mis timed the instacast so I have to cancel my current cast, losing time there. Even melee has issues in that they can only attack the boss effectively from melee range. If you have to move away, that's an issue, so should melee have longer range to compensate?

That last part is how we got Endwalker

MCH could have walking casts, or actual hard cast times, on their Tools for example. But the issue is the blurring of the line between Caster and PRanged roles by doing so. SE might not see it this way because they use Magical Ranged and Physical Ranged as the nomenclature, but if MCH had a cast time on each of their tools, that'd mean that in a 2min loop, they'd 'cast' 6 Drills, 3 Air Anchors, 2 Chainsaws and 2 Excavators. By contrast, the SMN would cast 2 Slipstreams, 4 Ruby Rites and 2 Ruin3's. The 'Caster role member' would have less cast times, than a PRanged Job. We already see SAM using more 'cast times' than SMN, so I can see why SE wouldn't want to blur the line any further, but equally it could be argued that it's kinda on them for making SMN so mobile in the first place

This part is funny though:

but if the way to make a job unique is by applying a mobility impairment and giving them even more tools than they already have just to resolve that gimmick just sounds very similar to an already existing job - BLM. Ok.

This is how MCH WAS in HW. We had cast times, yes, and we had ways to work around it. Getting a proc for the next step of the 123 combo meant that said next step had its cast time rendered instant. Ammo meant that you'd be guaranteed to trigger the proc, and you had both Reload (3 bullets) and Quick Reload (1 bullet) to add Ammo. In a sense, since Reload was 3 'stacks' and had a 60s CD, it was effectively the prototype for Triplecast. And you had Rapid Fire as a CD, which not only set your GCD to 1.5s for 3 shots (the prototype for the current Hypercharge, in a sense), but also removed the cast times on those 3 shots.
Edit: Sorry, I was thinking of SB numbers. Quick doublecheck (ha) of things says that in HW, Reload gave you 5 Ammo. My bad, but in my defense, it's been 10 years

So the above has it backwards. MCH had a mobility impairment and ways to play around said impairment, then SE removed that. And as a direct result, MCH lost something that made it 'unique'.

If we really need an action to 'play around said impairment' (an impairment that doesn't seem to stop SAMs from playing the game), slap 'Tool cast times are instant' as an additional effect on Reassemble

Perhaps they can charge/channel these cast bars to multiple levels to enhance the potency of their actions ?

Sounds like Empowered actions from WOW's latest class, Evoker. For some actions in this game, I can absolutely see that kind of system working well. For example, a BLM's Flare, or Flarestar, growing in power as you hold the cast for longer, but you can cut it early if you need to for some reason (eg to move, or if you can see the enemy's going to die before the cast fully completes). As a bonus, you'd be able to expand on the 'feel' of the actions visually, EG by making it so that the Flarestar VFX visually grows with each level of empowerment as you charge the cast up

Another example I think could be interesting is SAM's Midare/Higanbana, but rather than 'channel longer = more damage', what if the levels of charge gave potency bonus of 0, 5, 10, 5, such that there's an element of 'timing', and that 'overcooking' the charge isn't as much damage as getting the timing right (akin to Monster Hunter Greatsword)

[Mikey_R]

That last part is how we got Endwalker

MCH could have walking casts, or actual hard cast times, on their Tools for example. But the issue is the blurring of the line between Caster and PRanged roles by doing so. SE might not see it this way because they use Magical Ranged and Physical Ranged as the nomenclature, but if MCH had a cast time on each of their tools, that'd mean that in a 2min loop, they'd 'cast' 6 Drills, 3 Air Anchors, 2 Chainsaws and 2 Excavators. By contrast, the SMN would cast 2 Slipstreams, 4 Ruby Rites and 2 Ruin3's. The 'Caster role member' would have less cast times, than a PRanged Job. We already see SAM using more 'cast times' than SMN, so I can see why SE wouldn't want to blur the line any further, but equally it could be argued that it's kinda on them for making SMN so mobile in the first place

I think there are 2 questions that need to be asked. Does Summoner need to spend more time casting? and Does it matter if another job in another role does 'cast' for longer? I think I have read in the past Samurai spends more time casting than Summoner does. I do not know if it still holds true, but it does mean there is a precedent there from SE that a job can spend more time casting than a caster. However, why are we not also seeing how it compares to the other 3 casters, who do spend more time in casting animations. Could Summoner not just be an outlier in the casting role and Machinist an outlier in the phys ranged role? All open questions for discussion and it will likely fall to whether you want the full black and white approach, or, if you would allow that grey area in some cases.

[Xieldras]

We have 13 DPS classes, there is guaranteed to be some overlap across the whole spectrum. At the moment, Phys Ranged has the most overlap within its own role. All three are free movement and slam the lit up skills as fast as possible with no downtime. By adding walking-casts and slowing MCH down a bit, you're increasing the skill ceiling and the skill floor in exchange for its position as top selfish DPS within its role, similar to the same treatment BLM and SAM have in their own roles of Magic and Melee. Ideally they need to look at creating identity within each Role type first and foremost and then expanding that outward. If MCH got walking casts back with a similar ammo system to HW, no one would say it plays exactly like SAM or BLM aside from the movement restriction.

As Valence said, you're turning it into a weaker caster then that has less free movement than any mDPS. As soon as the damage increase matches that, then you'll hear the screeching from all the other roles.

My TLDR from the Walking Casts thread over in the DPS side of the forums is simple: You think you want walking casts because it works in PvP, but you don't. Current PvE's a whole other ball game that will not work with the Heavy inflicted on a MCH in this scenario, especially with the fast-paced DDR.

[Valence]

Note on pvp walked casts even if I'm not a huge fan of them even in pvp: they do work in pvp in concept because they provide a downside to a ranged job to reduce their mobility as a counterpoint to melees and faster jobs that directly interact against said ranged job. There is literally nothing in pve that currently enters into that paradigm, there is no melee enemies trying to jump at ranged jobs to mow them down, there is no concept of frontliners holding the line and making room for their ranged behind, there is literally no tactical grounds as offered by the pvp systems to justify walked casts. Walked casts in pve are essentially an inferior version of hard standard casts for the reasons I exposed earlier, because the paradigm in pve is all about dodging out of the bad or moving to the right spot in time, which is a totally different set of rules to play against.

Counter point.

If the idea is to make more jobs feel unique to play, then wouldn't adding something like this help to differentiate this one job from the rest in its group? Especially if they get given tools to help work around either the reduced movement during casts or allowing you to drop the casts altogether.

No, because then it turns it into a caster, which goes directly against the initial statement of intent.

So the above has it backwards. MCH had a mobility impairment and ways to play around said impairment, then SE removed that. And as a direct result, MCH lost something that made it 'unique'.

It didn't make it unique, it made it a caster, plain and simple. 1.5s casts perhaps, which was caster lite back then (and caster heavy today), but still a caster nonetheless. The ammo and wildfire gameplay made it unique, not HW gauss barrel. If you compare HW MCH to SB MCH, the latter wins hands down in terms of unique mechanics and identity as a result, because it adds overheat and heat management to the pile without losing anything else but the cast times - which didn't make it unique, but actually homogenized it closer to casters.