Pilgrims Traverse early feedback

[GypsumFantastic]

I am submitting feedback based on several days of working through Pilgrim's Traverse. I am providing this early feedback to help shape the future direction of this content.

Firstly I'd like to touch upon the personal highlights of this new iteration.

- The overall aesthetic, design, and open-room feel are fantastic. This represents a substantial upgrade that successfully moves away from the square room feeling of prior Deep Dungeons.

- The subtle changes to the Pomander system are appreciated, along with the introduction of new transformations and abilities.

- The bosses now feel like proper mainline dungeon bosses, often incorporating environmental gimmicks. This is a welcome change and a substantial improvement, even if some of them are a little repetitive.

- The weekly rewards are a great addition and deserve to be added to more content.

- The queueable boss is a thoughtful feature and I'd love for all bosses to be queueable as a resource for solo player training

- Floors 1 through 30 are arguably the best of any Deep Dungeon. The pace is fast, the enemy encounters are not unduly lethal and groups of any composition can progress and explore. This third of the content perfectly delivers on the content for everyone promise, serving as an excellent introduction to the Deep Dungeon format.

Next I'd like to provide feedback on what I felt missed the mark. The development team stated that this content would be for everyone but my early experience is that this promise holds true for only the first third of the dungeon.

- Starting around Floor 31 and escalating severely in later brackets, the content suffers from a sudden and violent difficulty spike. The accessible design is immediately replaced by a highly punitive experience not unlike Eureka Orthos.

- Enemies begin utilizing untelegraphed point-blank AoEs and attacks with either no or extremely short cast times.

- Large, room-wide conal attacks are introduced that force erratic movement, often driving players directly into hidden traps or bombs that instantly reduce HP to critical levels or cause a fatality. I know a lot of this is standard Deep Dungeon fare, but it has never been fun.

- The exploratory, puggable nature of the early floors vanishes. High Aetherpool arms/armor do not mitigate the sudden burst damage, leading to an excessive amount of time spent resurrecting, waiting for Phoenix Down cooldowns, or sneaking to an Altar of Return.

While Pilgrim's Traverse provides a brilliant framework of new features, atmosphere, and mechanics, its overall structure feels contradictory. It delivers a third of a Deep Dungeon for everyone, followed by a swift and uncompromising return to the niche, high-difficulty environment that previous formats created.

[Valence]

Strong disagree on those bosses, imo they're like Orthos ones and have no place in deep dungeons. They're just trying to turn deep dungeons into standard pve, which is just homogenizing the whole game and closing doors to people, which goes to the opposite of their statement of intent.

Strong agree on floors past 50 especially. 30 to 50 is alright because even if mobs start having dangerous mechanics, they rarely oneshot, most of the time they'll cleave half the health and give a vulnerability debuff. It's past 50 that we're literally back into Orthos hell with oneshots everywhere. It's not casual friendly even if there is more checkpoints for entry (which are appreciated).

Essentially what this new dungeon is bringing in terms of content is:
- Nothing for the casual playerbase because other deep dungeons were already beyond them past floor 30, so it changes nothing for them.
- Nothing for the solo challenge community, because it hasn't changed in terms of format or content for those either.
- Everything for the raiding community that now has access to another extreme level trial AND an savage+ level trial (quantum), that they can customize. It's like criterion all over again, you have the choice between ex/savage and savage+. That's literally the fresh new content addition, the trial and its quantum version, and both are aimed at raiders.

[ThurinTurambar]

Strong disagree on those bosses, imo they're like Orthos ones and have no place in deep dungeons. They're just trying to turn deep dungeons into standard pve, which is just homogenizing the whole game and closing doors to people, which goes to the opposite of their statement of intent.

It's past 50 that we're literally back into Orthos hell with oneshots everywhere. It's not casual friendly even if there is more checkpoints for entry (which are appreciated).

Essentially what this new dungeon is bringing in terms of content is:
- Nothing for the casual playerbase because other deep dungeons were already beyond them past floor 30, so it changes nothing for them.
- Nothing for the solo challenge community, because it hasn't changed in terms of format or content for those either.

You act as if any death is a grave offense against the "casual experience".
From observing your posts over time, i get the feeling that your idea of the casual experience is unachievable while retaining other values.
Pilgrim's Traverse is making leaps for making the experience friendly to begginers or people who dont want to get that invested - new checkpoint floors and duty finder, very generous potsherd droprate allowing for nigh unlimited potions.
Another casual friendly new feature is how certain skills have much more visible casting animation on mobs, like fiery aura, or visibile dangerous buffs like the blazing scales on traverse monitor.

While some palace bosses are bit different in terms of execution, once you learn mechanics it was always a question of how many resources are you spending on them. Optimise to save an incense, steel, lust, strength, or the other way - optimise to use as many resources as you can to save time. Tell me, whats the difference between boss of floor 20 in potd and boss of stone 10 or 40 in PT?

You're also wrong on the solo perspective. If someone wants a challenge in just soloing, they will have fun doing it blind on their job of choice (or class like some gamers do).
PT is quite different in terms of item management compared to other 3 dungeons. Pomanders are aimed much more at actually fighting the mobs instead of heavy floor wipe reliance. Also heavier accent on adapting to the circumstances, with votives having additional randomness to them.
For more extreme soloing it is pleasant thus far, less difficult start is nice for score runs, while keeping pace to kill everything under 30 minutes is challenging in 41-60 both to very large floor layout and mob mechanics that make it more difficult when multipulling (for example the one mob that makes you disoriented, making dodging aoes harder)

I would however say that the difficulty progress ends on the aoe part. Mob hp and auto attack damage stagnates around stone 60, i would prefer to see it still rise in a significant way after that.

[Valence]

If the only thing we and the devs can think of when it comes to difficulty is "OHKO non telegraphs" to memorize, then yes, I'm sorry to say, but I think this kind of difficulty is off putting and too binary. They weren't much of a problem in POTD and HOH so why is it all the fuss in EO and PT now? I do recognize that they have done some things to be more friendly and your points on checkpoints, enemy skills or potsherds are good. But they're not addressing the core of the problem with their general pve direction that's also starting to overtake deep dungeons to make them even more of the same slop we're getting in standard pve. Why the need to homogenize everything like this? What's up with this company that constantly cannot do anything else than homogenize? Especially when it's already been a gigantic complaint among the playerbase notably on jobs, they continue nonetheless?

Now it also made me think, what do we expect in terms of difficulty from deep dungeons? Because so far I don't see anything that's going to seriously draw casuals beyond Stone 50-60? Maybe 70 if we push it? So what do we do? We just accept that they'll only have access to the first floors and be done with it? I mean, that could be a valid take, but then as I said, it doesn't change anything comparatively to what older deep dungeons already offer: casuals will do the first story floors, set for a series of floors to farm for xp (probably floors 51-60 instead of 21-30 this time due to the additional checkpoints), and that's it. On the other hand, obviously you want the deep dungeon experience to remain difficult enough past a certain floor level to still keep its feeling of accomplishment, but I seriously do think that if the only shit that we're going to get is luring trap > 4 OHKO untelegraphed moves at once > party wipe, it's not fun, it's frankly frustrating. There is some things one can do to attempt salvaging it when it happens (pop a pomander of storms in EO, an incense or witching here), but bruh. But I guess past that point I do have a fundamental disagreement with their pve design and i'm incredibly frustrated to see it finally make its way into deep dungeons too, which are supposed to be all about semi randomness, unique runs, using one's brains with crowd control and other effects, and not playing fucking DDR once more. We already have everything else in pve that's literally tailored for that.

While some palace bosses are bit different in terms of execution, once you learn mechanics it was always a question of how many resources are you spending on them. Optimise to save an incense, steel, lust, strength, or the other way - optimise to use as many resources as you can to save time. Tell me, whats the difference between boss of floor 20 in potd and boss of stone 10 or 40 in PT?

You're speaking of resources within the frame of solo runs. Normal parties just get through by doing the mechanics correctly and burning down the boss.

The difference between the boss of floor 20 of POTD and what is found in stones 10-40 is quite obvious to me: it has telegraphed AoEs only (not super interesting), and adds to burn down. It's a simple boss really. Extremely casual.

You're also wrong on the solo perspective. If someone wants a challenge in just soloing, they will have fun doing it blind on their job of choice (or class like some gamers do).
PT is quite different in terms of item management compared to other 3 dungeons. Pomanders are aimed much more at actually fighting the mobs instead of heavy floor wipe reliance. Also heavier accent on adapting to the circumstances, with votives having additional randomness to them.
For more extreme soloing it is pleasant thus far, less difficult start is nice for score runs, while keeping pace to kill everything under 30 minutes is challenging in 41-60 both to very large floor layout and mob mechanics that make it more difficult when multipulling (for example the one mob that makes you disoriented, making dodging aoes harder)

I would however say that the difficulty progress ends on the aoe part. Mob hp and auto attack damage stagnates around stone 60, i would prefer to see it still rise in a significant way after that.

I don't think I'm wrong no, but we're talking about different things: you're getting something different, and I'll trust you there because that's your thing, but you're also not getting more or less of it. You're getting the same content, like casuals are getting the same kind of content aimed at them (story floors). I can some kind of midcore community making floor 99 clearance more broad, and appearing due to the welcome addition of the checkpoints, but that's not enough in my opinion. All matched parties I've seen so far are just wiping randomly to OHKO moves because they don't have the required discipline to deal with those.

[ThurinTurambar]

Yes bosses are stomped by parties in all deep dungeons. So again point to PT bosses fitting the bill.
If you want casual experience on them, use items provided. Double hp with steel makes you nigh immortal (unless like boss 99, or doom type mechs).
So back to boss 20 of potd vs boss 10 and boss 40 of PT: its the same. Dodge obvious aoes, burn adds. Except boss 20 of potd kills you in 3 hits if you're underleveled.

What could draw casuals to higher floors? Feeling of progression, clear rewards, better loot?
Or is is not casual to learn basic rules of deep dungeon? PT offers great ease of learning mob mechanics... Just stand behind wall to observe what the mech does. There is literally 1 instance where LoS doesnt work.
Is it not casual to consult Maygi's guide on alt tab/2nd monitor to know the mobs?

Also it should be the case that from certain floors up, the experience is not aimed at casual playerbase. The design of deep dungeon is to actually make casuals into more invested in the content players. You want those rewards? Either engage with community and get someone to guide/teach you, watch guide or lock in for prog.

That said, i am not fully satisfied with PT difficulty progression - there is very few mobs with threatening auto attack damage, barely any dots, no mobs that threaten time management. Mobs in 81-100 have too low hp.
Votive candelabras negative effects are very underwhelming: "extra traps" means just 100% a trap will spawn in every room aside from starting one, not multiple traps per room. Gloom is just a guarantee that floor will have the usual gloom modifier, not a seperate one that could stack with the natural one. No map can be circumvented by sight/mazeroot.

On positive side, some mobs have great design - chameleons are just amazing. The big turtles eating your steel is genious.

[Xapapetsu]

I'll start by saying I'm not a deep dungeon player, I went to floor 30 on POTD and quit, only went to floor 20 on HoH, and never made it to floor 10 on orthos. With that being said, I'm actually enjoying deep dungeon for once, I'm on a solo run at the moment starting floor 61-70. It's nice to learn what enemies to avoid, boss mechanics are easy enough but not overly simplified so you still need to think, and drop rates to get sustaining potions is amazing. I really don't have anything to complain about, it's fun.

[Valence]

1) No, I don't think it's quite casual to have to read guides and neither do I believe that one hit ko mechanics are anyway fun nor engaging, especially not for casuals. It's like saying something is for casuals because it asks them to dip their toes into extremes past a point. I think I'll just agree to disagree on this. But! Those new checkpoint additions are probably what's selling the whole deal in my opinion, no joke, this is the most QoL addition they've added and it probably helps catch the interest of a LOT more people in the optional floors.
2) On bosses, I guess my problem runs way beyond deep dungeons so fair enough.
3) I do agree that deep dungeon is supposed to have a difficulty scaling over floors.

I do love the chameleons yes! It's very oneshot but heh, the idea behind their behavior is very unique and I'd like more of this

[ThurinTurambar]

My point is, its not a good mindset or pride point to be a casual. If i was a game designer i would want to incentivise players to graduate from being casual into players invested in the content they find interesting on deeper level.
One song i like has a nice quote "The ship in port is the safer one, but it was not the reason it was made".

[Valence]

And that's where we fundamentally disagree. And I'm saying this as somebody that usually enjoys exploring to death system intricacies and theorycrafting.
Offering incentives to let the player choose whether or not they're interested in going in deeper waters is warranted though, but shitting on the casual mindset ain't exactly it.

But that's neither there nor here. I think they more or less nailed it with the general format of the content (more checkpoints, more progression, and all the good points that have been mentioned), it's just on the gameplay itself that I have concerns. I have yet to try out the trial at the end, how is it (the not quantum version)?

[Mesarthim]

It's... aight?

Once you know its few mechanics it's painfully easy (if you do it via normal DD entry with poms and incense). Just don't do the outside trial if you do not need practice because the reward is nothing. I got 3 pilgrim potions (from a 25 minute sch solo) and an other player in a stream said they got a phoenix down. It has a chest on clear but unless there's some secret drop out of it there is little reason to do it. I one shot it on my first solo inside the DD with just a little reading (because I don't have the time to world prog things).

I will add it's only painfully easy if you can read and react to cast bars and floor patterns. Stuff you learn (or should learn) from other content.