Ultima the High Seraph.

[Pimsan20]

just as a bit of an important detail, the lore books heavily imply that Ultima isn't some kinda alien, even with what we learned about Athena's interaction with them. Rather, it suggested that Ultima was originally just a chunk of rock that was the focus of worship and myth for ages till it gained sapience and became the high seraph we eventually fought.

In other words, Ultima is just yet another naturally occuring Primal resulting from collective faith in something.

It is possible, but so far we have no evidence that Ultima was just a chunk of rock. We don't know if it came from other space or came from an higher plane of existence. But i do feel like we might see beings like Ultima in this new saga.

[Cleretic]

just as a bit of an important detail, the lore books heavily imply that Ultima isn't some kinda alien, even with what we learned about Athena's interaction with them. Rather, it suggested that Ultima was originally just a chunk of rock that was the focus of worship and myth for ages till it gained sapience and became the high seraph we eventually fought.

In other words, Ultima is just yet another naturally occuring Primal resulting from collective faith in something.

Could I ask for a citation on this one? The only descriptions I could find (surprisingly the Encyclopedia and Triple Triad cards have identical descriptions, which isn't common) just describes it as 'an embodiment of pure ruination'. That's more evocative than it is descriptive; that could be a perfectly valid description for a dragon, a bomb, or a meteor.

And while it's not a particularly strong piece of evidence, I did happen to check it, and Ultima's Triple Triad card doesn't mark it as a primal, despite the description saying it became what it is 'by a process not unlike the prayer-fueled creation of a primal'. It's hard to tell how much weight to give that, but the list of primals does almost entirely scan (except Bahamut for some reason), so my read is that 'not unlike a primal' does not actually mean 'a primal'.

[Anonymoose]

I often come back to the box for the statue, which describes Ultima as "extradimensional" - a "being of pure destructive power" from a "higher plane of existence far beyond our ken" that could wield magicks capable of "unfurling the very threads of Creation". That box does describe her as a "living primal" after being infused with mankind's worship of that which might destroy them. But that idea that she's more of a force than an entity always stuck with me because that's how the Presence of Silvertear lake was originally described. Seemed ripe for reconning into something cool.

[Lunair]

Could I ask for a citation on this one? The only descriptions I could find (surprisingly the Encyclopedia and Triple Triad cards have identical descriptions, which isn't common) just describes it as 'an embodiment of pure ruination'. That's more evocative than it is descriptive; that could be a perfectly valid description for a dragon, a bomb, or a meteor.

And while it's not a particularly strong piece of evidence, I did happen to check it, and Ultima's Triple Triad card doesn't mark it as a primal, despite the description saying it became what it is 'by a process not unlike the prayer-fueled creation of a primal'. It's hard to tell how much weight to give that, but the list of primals does almost entirely scan (except Bahamut for some reason), so my read is that 'not unlike a primal' does not actually mean 'a primal'.

There's a reason I said "naturally-occuring primal." The deeper we look into the lore about Primals and aether, the more apparent it becomes that more than a few things are created as part of the same process of collective faith, something supported by dev statements. Auspices are probably the most substantial example of a "naturally occuring primal" where the collective faith of the far east is focused on animals because of the local religious beliefs and mythologies, but there's plenty of others, with Susanoo being the most blatant case where we actually SEE an example of a Primal-like being being created due to collective faith reaching a certain threshold, but plenty of others like Tural vidraal, tsukimogami, and even the archbishop of Ishgard all being examples of beings that were previously normal becoming abnormally powerful (the Archbishop was explicitely able to temper the Heaven's Ward even before he got the eye out for transformation.) due to the collective faith of a region. They're not all considered Primals due to particular details differing, but the underlying principles which result in their creation are all consistent.

[MicahZerrshia]

Oh for the love of... I thought we'd moved on from this nonsense?

Nope. If you don't want to hear opposing viewpoints and only high praise for the writing, go to the main reddit page. I will stand firm, always, that Hydaelyn was a genocidal villain and this game is a good example of how easy it is to convince ppl that complete eradication of not only one, but multiple species, by one person who took it upon themselves and refused to even consult anyone else about, is a good thing. If they wanted to make her sympathetic or that her actions were not only just but necessary, they needed waaaaaaaaaaay better writers and more than one expansion for that.

And also "no me?" lol that is just one of the many things you said that is just plain wrong. I am Azem, therefore I would exist, in my original unbroken form, happily traveling around solving problems, like I do now. Also sacrifices were voluntary and done in a way that all who were sacrificed could be restored. And sure the sundering was a good solution when the problem of metion and her sisters was an unknown, but as soon as we not only discovered this information, but relayed it to her and a few others, the problem was known, and if a bunch of broken shards could solve it, sorry if 1 broken shard could solve the problem, I am sure millions of unsundered ascians would have had no issues. They would have been a minor annoyance at best. But a true villain is the one who withheld all the information and decided to sunder her world and every single plant and animal on it because she felt she was right after meeting only 1 of those shards for an hour at best. Emet also felt what he was doing was right, and you have no problems calling him a villain. And his actions were also restorative, even if he had to cause pain. Sort of like when you have to rebreak a bone for it to heal correctly. It hurts like crazy, but in the end its the only thing that will make the bone whole again.

And one last thing, ppl can interprit things differently, some with media literacy some without, but we are not the ones who are still to this day having fits and get irritated when we hear casual opposing views about the EW storyline.

[Cleretic]

There's a reason I said "naturally-occuring primal." The deeper we look into the lore about Primals and aether, the more apparent it becomes that more than a few things are created as part of the same process of collective faith, something supported by dev statements. Auspices are probably the most substantial example of a "naturally occuring primal" where the collective faith of the far east is focused on animals because of the local religious beliefs and mythologies, but there's plenty of others, with Susanoo being the most blatant case where we actually SEE an example of a Primal-like being being created due to collective faith reaching a certain threshold, but plenty of others like Tural vidraal, tsukimogami, and even the archbishop of Ishgard all being examples of beings that were previously normal becoming abnormally powerful (the Archbishop was explicitely able to temper the Heaven's Ward even before he got the eye out for transformation.) due to the collective faith of a region. They're not all considered Primals due to particular details differing, but the underlying principles which result in their creation are all consistent.

Well you're not describing a helpful distinction, then, because you're mixing actual primals (Susano and King Thordan) with things that aren't primals (the Auspices and Tural Vidraal). And in fact the Auspices aren't really comparable, because it seemed to be that they actually don't get power from worship, they just get power from living for so damn long that they collate enough aether to become comparable in power anyway. Some of them are worshipped, but that seemed to come afterwards; you see a big flaming bird and build a religion around it, rather than building a religion that involves a flaming bird that then gets summoned. It's entirely possible that worship is the source of the difference in behavior between Auspices and Tural Vidraal who definitely aren't worshipped, but at that point we're dipping into vibes-based speculation.

Now, the actual comparison point that's valid to bring up is the Twelve. Their process of deification was also explicitly compared to primals, but they also aren't primals (again, Triple Triad cards don't mark them as such, but also the story makes it pretty clear itself); they were extant figures of great power, that then got shaped by a lot of collective belief over a lot of time. That does sound roughly like Ultima, especially if we add in the evidence that Ultima was on some level of 'around' since before the Sundering as evidenced by Pandaemonium. We don't know when Ivalice was, but it's safe to say that thousands of years passed, which would give Ultima a similar series of conditions to the Twelve: it was something that had so much belief that it was 'the High Seraph' that it became that, regardless of what it was before.

You still haven't shared the evidence that 'suggested that Ultima was originally a chunk of rock', but this approach would at least hold for that theory: this is a setting where faith has an effect over a long enough period of time, so it's not impossible that Ultima was just a big, radioactive rock that got deified over time.

I would argue that a big, radioactive rock doesn't make for an especially compelling 'arc villain' to build up to, though. If they're gonna do an amped-up version of Ultima, that's probably not gonna be the reveal.

[Raikai]

just as a bit of an important detail, the lore books heavily imply that Ultima isn't some kinda alien, even with what we learned about Athena's interaction with them. Rather, it suggested that Ultima was originally just a chunk of rock that was the focus of worship and myth for ages till it gained sapience and became the high seraph we eventually fought.

In other words, Ultima is just yet another naturally occuring Primal resulting from collective faith in something.

That reminds me a bit of Jenova.

I'd love Ultima for a major arch villain... Something we spend the whole 8.0 figuring out what it is. But the story certainly need more sub-villains, unless they mean to exhaust her in just one expansion worth of storytelling.

[Cassar]

Ultima may not be the next big villain, in fact I agree with Cleretic's points that it would take a lot to make this villain interesting considering the fact that we already defeated a version of it, but its existence opens the doors to other potential threats. I haven't been able to find confirmation that Ultima is an extradimensional being, but during the events of Pandaemonium, Lahabrea says he believes she's "not from this star". This would be the only instance that we know of where an alien comes to Etheirys.

I find this single line to be interesting though:

The Allagans made little progress toward penetrating [the Heart of Sabik's] mysteries, but some scholars attribute the fact that they were able to use it at all to theoretical encounters between Allag's researchers and the High Seraph.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this implies that the Allagans may have somehow contacted Ultima directly, which either meant that she visited us again, or that they had enough technology to find a way to contact her.
This scenario is somewhat similar to our current predicament with the Interdimensional Key, where we are able to use it but not understand it. Since the most likely theory is that the key is a piece of Auracite and also considering that Alexandria has equally advanced technology compared to Allag, this could be the way they find to connect these two stories.

Regardless, I think the most interesting questions are where did Ultima come from, and are there other beings like her?

[Anonymoose]

I haven't been able to find confirmation that Ultima is an extradimensional being, but during the events of Pandaemonium, Lahabrea says he believes she's "not from this star".

Original citation is the box for the meister quality figure, which I understand is not exactly a "well, that settles that, then!" sort of source; I suspect anyone who wants to disregard it will do so without much cognitive dissonance, but it says what it says so I keep it on the citation list for now.

Also known to ancient Ivalicians as the Angel of Blood, Ultima made her descent to Hydaelyn countless centuries before the rise of Delita and his storied unification of the realm's kingdoms. Hailing from a higher plane of existence far beyond our ken, Ultima was a being of pure destructive power, able to weave magicks that could unfurl the very threads of Creation. Yet like moths to flame, so are the weak drawn to strength, and it was not long before mankind's fear towards the high Seraph gave way to reverence, feeding the extradimensional traveler's empty soul until it brimmed with a force completely alien to Her - a sense of self. and thus thought the collective desire of mankind to worship what might bring him low was Ultima made a living primal.

[Shistar]

Venat was right to sunder the world because the Convocation were just going to keep sacrificing more and more of the remaining Ancients and other life to Zodiark without any resolution and would have eventually ran out of sacrifices to do so, with Meteion's Song of Oblivion still threatening the universe, something they were powerless to stop without being able to directly interact with Dynamis.

I recently stumbled upon a super interesting video that challenges this view called "Venat: Why She Failed". It's a long watch, but enjoyable overall. Even if you disagree with their opinion, they way it's presented gave me much to think about.
Venat is objectively a deceptive character. But the writers wrap it around this idea that she does all of this out of love, so it's okay. It's a great exercise for WoL character development for those who like that kind of stuff.

just as a bit of an important detail, the lore books heavily imply that Ultima isn't some kinda alien, even with what we learned about Athena's interaction with them. Rather, it suggested that Ultima was originally just a chunk of rock that was the focus of worship and myth for ages till it gained sapience and became the high seraph we eventually fought.

In other words, Ultima is just yet another naturally occuring Primal resulting from collective faith in something.

I watched this video recently that had a very similar theory!