What is wrong about making machinist good?

[Reginald_Cain]

That is the wrong way to look at it. You're acting like there is some god given reason BRD/DNC need the performance they have now, and that MCH is only that weak because it happens to be in the same role as BRD/DNC.

How about this...
I am tired of MCH holding DNC/BRD hostage. DNC/BRD have a huge indirect difficulty over MCH by depending on their team for their rDPS. The only way you can be a top BRD/DNC is if your whole team is on point, but they can't be rewarded for that because of MCH holding them back. I propose BRD/DNC rDPS get buffed up to a top performing dps job. And they can make a 4th rphys job, at MCH levels, to codify a 2 tier system inside the rphys role.

See where that would leave MCH? You are asking for that, just for BRD/DNC. Having different performance tiers inside the whole of the dps role is a bad idea. It only causes problems, and fixes nothing.

The way i see it ,machinist is not a support and should not be balanced around tolwo support jobs. It has no utility and btw it uses a giant drill cannon. I'm asking jobs be balanced around how many raid buffs and utility skills they have. Viper and samurai are top dps while being easy to play because they provide no utility. Machinist and any selfish dps should be in their own category while jobs like dancer and bard should provide high rdps thru buffs. I'm asking for phys ranged as a whole to get buffed as a whole. Bard and dancers buffs should provide the group with so much damage it equalizes to selfish dps like machinist or viper instead of the current system where ALL 3 ARE ABYSMALLY WEAK. All dps should be near equal and they aren't. Selfish dps should have comparable adps to eachother while supportive ones have similar rdps to eachother. The rdps of support jobs should be equal to the adps of selfish ones. It's not at all asking for bard and dancer to suck. They fundamentally dont belong in the same subrole as machinist. They should be strong without bullying eachother out of the one slot that they shouldn't even have to share.

[aiqa]

The way i see it ,machinist is not a support and should not be balanced around tolwo support jobs. It has no utility and btw it uses a giant drill cannon. I'm asking jobs be balanced around how many raid buffs and utility skills they have. Viper and samurai are top dps while being easy to play because they provide no utility. Machinist and any selfish dps should be in their own category while jobs like dancer and bard should provide high rdps thru buffs. I'm asking for phys ranged as a whole to get buffed as a whole. Bard and dancers buffs should provide the group with so much damage it equalizes to selfish dps like machinist or viper instead of the current system where ALL 3 ARE ABYSMALLY WEAK. All dps should be near equal and they aren't. Selfish dps should have comparable adps to eachother while supportive ones have similar rdps to eachother. The rdps of support jobs should be equal to the adps of selfish ones. It's not at all asking for bard and dancer to suck. They fundamentally dont belong in the same subrole as machinist. They should be strong without bullying eachother out of the one slot that they shouldn't even have to share.

I don't really see any other important utility on BRD/DNC over MCH.
Raid buffs are already included in the rDPS scores. If you want to balance that persnal DPS around how strong the raids buffs are, you need to look at aDPS or nDPS. Else you're counting them twice.
And utility? What hugely strong utility do BRD/DNC bring that justifies lower rDPS contributions? MCH is right in the middle between BRD and DNC of what fflogs counts as "healing", which includes +resist and -damage statuses. And those scores are all quite close anyway.

And sure. The whole of the rphys role is in a terrible spot. Fully 100% agree with that. But specifically targeting MCH as the singular rphys job that has it bad, or even has it worse than DNC/BRD, is not correct.

[Carighan]

Yeah I agree. rDPS has to be equivalent between selfish and support jobs. That's the whole point, that support jobs get their rDPS from other players while selfish jobs do it themselves.

[Valence]

That is the wrong way to look at it. You're acting like there is some god given reason BRD/DNC need the performance they have now, and that MCH is only that weak because it happens to be in the same role as BRD/DNC.

How about this...
I am tired of MCH holding DNC/BRD hostage. DNC/BRD have a huge indirect difficulty over MCH by depending on their team for their rDPS. The only way you can be a top BRD/DNC is if your whole team is on point, but they can't be rewarded for that because of MCH holding them back. I propose BRD/DNC rDPS get buffed up to a top performing dps job. And they can make a 4th rphys job, at MCH levels, to codify a 2 tier system inside the rphys role.

See where that would leave MCH? You are asking for that, just for BRD/DNC. Having different performance tiers inside the whole of the dps role is a bad idea. It only causes problems, and fixes nothing.

You want to reproduce for rphys the absolute horror the caster role currently has? Please no...

MCH should never have lost its identity to begin with. It used to be a buffer and the crowd control god in the game, why was this removed is beyond me.

[Raikai]

Yeah I agree. rDPS has to be equivalent between selfish and support jobs. That's the whole point, that support jobs get their rDPS from other players while selfish jobs do it themselves.

When talking about the Aiming group, where their outsourced rdps contribution is much more constant than of those with just 2min meta buffs (Ninja, Monk, Summoner, etc...), it puts MCH in a weird spot because of how well this supporting aspect scales: Unless you're playing with really bad dpsers or in Light Party duties, MCH won't ever find a favorable place. (and the irony of it all is how botched MCH's aoe kit is, to even be a greater boon in Light Parties... sigh.)

And if they overbuff MCH to compensate for this, or make it more desirable, suddenly DNC and BRD will get heavily overshadowed.

To me it's just a symptom of being part of this Aiming group, and the best way to solve is to give a rotational damage buff to MCH in the likeness of Standard Finish (buffs one person) or the songs (buffs whole party for less). However to avoid overlapping those, it could be a damage debuff on the target instead. They would probably also include a 120s buff to the job, but that's beyond the point.

[Valence]

However to avoid overlapping those, it could be a damage debuff on the target instead.

What a coincidence, that's what hypercharge used to do!

Anyway, agreed on the analysis. MCH doesn't follow the profile of heavy buffers BRD and DNC offer, and doesn't fit within the mold which generates this awkward situation where it overperforms them in non optimized settings, and dramatically underperforms in good groups. It has zero business being in rphys precisely because they removed all of its party DPS support tools.

[aiqa]

You want to reproduce for rphys the absolute horror the caster role currently has? Please no...

No I don't want that. I said explicitly tiered dps jobs is a bad idea.

and dramatically underperforms in good groups

But it doesn't. It now performs best of all rphys, even in good groups. That is why the timing of this thread is so weird.

Complaining about rphys as a whole is understandable. Requesting raid buffs for MCH to make it easier to balance in the rphys role is fine. But at this moment in time, complaining that specifically MCH underperforms compared to the other rphys is just weird.

[Valence]

I'm sorry, your post just sent mixed signals to read. Glad we agree then.

And yes now it doesn't underperform because they buffed it so much that it overshadows BRD and DNC at all levels now. They'll just never be able to balance it within its own role, that's all.

[Reginald_Cain]

Can we just get a ogcd reset on autocrossbow like heat blast? Its been over 6 years... ill just take that at this point. That and aoe battery spender/generator gcd would be cool.

[Carighan]

When talking about the Aiming group, where their outsourced rdps contribution is much more constant than of those with just 2min meta buffs (Ninja, Monk, Summoner, etc...), it puts MCH in a weird spot because of how well this supporting aspect scales: Unless you're playing with really bad dpsers or in Light Party duties, MCH won't ever find a favorable place. (and the irony of it all is how botched MCH's aoe kit is, to even be a greater boon in Light Parties... sigh.)

This is not an uncommon conundrum for MMORPG classes, and hence not an unsolved problem. It just means that the more selfish jobs (a misnomer for MCH anyways since it brings an extra damage reduction instead of an extra damage boost) put more pressure on the individual to perform well, versus the support-y jobs that put more pressure on the others in the party to perform well. This is hardly noteworthy.

Can we just get a ogcd reset on autocrossbow like heat blast? Its been over 6 years... ill just take that at this point. That and aoe battery spender/generator gcd would be cool.

This is extra weird because now that both oGCDs are AoEs, there's high pressure to rather use single-target attacks that cycle oGCD CDs. Nevermind how utterly inane it is to have two exactly identical moves instead of a single one with half the CD and double the max charges!