What is wrong about making machinist good?

[Raikai]

That's something I fully agree on, and a huge problem of FFXIV class design in general: So many abilities just exist to, well, keep your fingers busy. Mentally, pressing 1213 repeatedly is no more stimulating than... just pressing 1? Or if we desperate, absolutely, have to use more than one button, then you might as well do the Heat Blast be different buttons for say, 3 shots. So you press 1-2-3. Boring either way, but well, people apparently love their carpal-tunnel inducing "design", although if I were a class designer on any MMORPG, I'd be insulted by the stuff the FFXIV devs call their design, being just oGCD weaving with exactly 0 brain engagement.

They couldn't even get themselves to make an actual proc out of the MCH CD-reduction. If at least the -CD was a proc that's not guaranteed, and can randomly affect either, none or both of the oGCDs, we'd at least have to pay attention instead of just marginally change the pacing of the semi-sleep that is playing Machinist.

I agree. That's why I feel that the 123 rotations that don't interact with anything else (so not MNK and SAM for example, with their branching paths) should be merged into one single converting button. Like some are even halfway through this. PLD's atonement combo is literally an improved basic combo - fulfills the same role - and yet it's condensed. If people are so keen on having such mindless 123 buttons separate, just allow them with the tech we have already to un-merge some merged actions.

I personally don't think pressing 3 separate keys, right next to each other, in a sequence is more interesting than pressing the same key 3 times. But I also don't want this merging just for the sake of it - it should be done to make room for more rotational stuff.

[Valence]

It's interesting that we now regularly have people advocating for combo filler simplification and condensation into a single button, when originally every class with combos had different paths to take. They removed this on many of them, and now we're left with autocombos.

[Raikai]

It's interesting that we now regularly have people advocating for combo filler simplification and condensation into a single button, when originally every class with combos had different paths to take. They removed this on many of them, and now we're left with autocombos.

I mean, if there's no branching or something to make our brains work... why not just condense and make more room into the hotbars?

I feel a bit confused with CBU3 on this... Because it feels as if it's a treatment they started, but stopped halfway (resources? lol) because it makes no sense for some stuff not be condensed.

Why Holy in White and Comet in Black, as well as the chromatic combos, are separate for PCT? You literally do not have the option to use one while the buff that unlocks the other is active. Heck, you can't even right-click the buff to drop it anymore. I know that PCT is a bit lacking in keys right now, but that would only open up for more interesting actions in 8.0 without overloading the hotbars.

[Carighan]

It's interesting that we now regularly have people advocating for combo filler simplification and condensation into a single button, when originally every class with combos had different paths to take. They removed this on many of them, and now we're left with autocombos.

I mean if your "branching" is stuff like what DRGs do or worse Warriors, then that's actually only better by absolutely marginal amounts.

Though, if one wants more than one branching path with 0 player agency (as if Warrior isn't just "roughly every 30 seconds do the other finisher pl0x"), then doing it like Warrior where you could have one autocombo and a special one-off that you can only use when the autocombo is on a particular step and that also cycles the combo, that's alright.

But it's boring design either way. The issue is fundamental, FFXIV wants to use class design that, at a very basic level, has always hated actual player agency. Even all the way back in HW or SB what players always bring up as good examples. What they did over the years is remove the "cruft" that was caked on top of the super-simplistic design, and that somewhat hid it. And removing that cruft was the right choice, it didn't add anything, but it also very clearly exposes how utterly banal the underlying design has always been.

MCH is easy btw, but depends on how people would prefer it. I think I could see two ways to make the class "feel right" also have interesting gameplay:

* Static-rotation based: Make us deal absurd amounts of damage with each shot. We use a gun. While others slash you with a sharp piece of rock or shoot a wooden arrow, we have a gun. I'm talking mid-6-figures crits. But, in return, our way to produce that number is arduous, and also this makes the hits very rare: Discard spent round -> Select bullet -> Load -> Aim -> Fire. 5 GCD to produce one instance of damage, and to make it technical enough to be a non-bad static-rotation implementation, each of these ought to be of variable length. No fixed 2.5s GCD or anything, say Discard is 1.0s, select depends on how it is done but could be variable depending on standard round vs special round, load is 2.5s, aim is 4.0s and it's a walking-cast, fire is 1.5s. At least demands something of the player. Bonus points if aim is also variable based on the selected round. Most abilities are now just rounds you can select, the fire ability turns into whatever we need then, including Wildfire being an incendiary round etc. Multitool exists separately, not sure how I'd handle that yet.
* Resource-based: A "reload" action fills in a "magazine" of "rounds". These are semi-randomly selected, like pulling revolver rounds out of a hobo sack of mixed ammo. You handle what you got dealt, which unlocks or locks abilities on each cyclinder advance. You can "skip" a round if you don't want to induce CD on a specific ability right now, but this'd be a short 0.7s-1.0s GCD to do that, so there's some damage loss when wanting to resist the random hand you were dealt. Overall rotation is somewhat reliable still, the actual main skills get replaced as you got a round enabling, say, Hot Shot use. So most skills now have a CD requirement and need the correct round (althoug multiple rounds might qualify for some skills, maybe even changing the effect slightly). As usual with resource-based jobs, the order and relative amount is randomized, but not the functionality or class-feel overall.

Both of these would directly base the gameplay off of being a gun-wielding job. The Multitool could also be used that way, but I'll be honest the only truly cool way I've ever seen for those was in GW2 with the engineer toolbelt adapting to which skills you had on your hotbar, and since we don't do that here, can't emulate that.

[Shurrikhan]

I grew up with HW/SB MCH where I had to use my brain on proc priorities. 12131213 is brainless spamm that only gives carpal tunnel as far as i'm concerned and the presence of the second ability is just there to pretend that's more interesting than a DRK/GNB burst.

I mean, HW and SB are when I played MCH the most, but that unique button flow there is literally the only unique flow to MCH now.

Replacing it now with copy-pasta from another job's design that was not itself stolen from MCH is... well, just as bad as when DNC stole their weaponskills' progression from MCH.

I agree. That's why I feel that the 123 rotations that don't interact with anything else (so not MNK and SAM for example, with their branching paths) should be merged into one single converting button. Like some are even halfway through this. PLD's atonement combo is literally an improved basic combo - fulfills the same role - and yet it's condensed. If people are so keen on having such mindless 123 buttons separate, just allow them with the tech we have already to un-merge some merged actions.

Mostly agreed, though...

But I also don't want this merging just for the sake of it - it should be done to make room for more rotational stuff.

...this would then make the unmerged forms non-options.

But it's boring design either way. The issue is fundamental, FFXIV wants to use class design that, at a very basic level, has always hated actual player agency. Even all the way back in HW or SB what players always bring up as good examples. What they did over the years is remove the "cruft" that was caked on top of the super-simplistic design, and that somewhat hid it. And removing that cruft was the right choice, it didn't add anything, but it also very clearly exposes how utterly banal the underlying design has always been.

Mostly agreed, but let's be honest: some people really do enjoy that movement of their hands over their controller/keyboard/mouse. Most would probably prefer it be for real reasons, but... the tactile element is still an element worth addressing.

MCH is easy btw, but depends on how people would prefer it. I think I could see two ways to make the class "feel right" also have interesting gameplay:

• Static-rotation based: Make us deal absurd amounts of damage with each shot. We use a gun. While others slash you with a sharp piece of rock or shoot a wooden arrow, we have a gun. I'm talking mid-6-figures crits. But, in return, our way to produce that number is arduous, and also this makes the hits very rare: Discard spent round -> Select bullet -> Load -> Aim -> Fire. 5 GCD to produce one instance of damage, and to make it technical enough to be a non-bad static-rotation implementation, each of these ought to be of variable length. No fixed 2.5s GCD or anything, say Discard is 1.0s, select depends on how it is done but could be variable depending on standard round vs special round, load is 2.5s, aim is 4.0s and it's a walking-cast, fire is 1.5s. At least demands something of the player. Bonus points if aim is also variable based on the selected round. Most abilities are now just rounds you can select, the fire ability turns into whatever we need then, including Wildfire being an incendiary round etc. Multitool exists separately, not sure how I'd handle that yet.
  
  
• Resource-based: A "reload" action fills in a "magazine" of "rounds". These are semi-randomly selected, like pulling revolver rounds out of a hobo sack of mixed ammo. You handle what you got dealt, which unlocks or locks abilities on each cyclinder advance. You can "skip" a round if you don't want to induce CD on a specific ability right now, but this'd be a short 0.7s-1.0s GCD to do that, so there's some damage loss when wanting to resist the random hand you were dealt. Overall rotation is somewhat reliable still, the actual main skills get replaced as you got a round enabling, say, Hot Shot use. So most skills now have a CD requirement and need the correct round (althoug multiple rounds might qualify for some skills, maybe even changing the effect slightly). As usual with resource-based jobs, the order and relative amount is randomized, but not the functionality or class-feel overall.

Both of these would directly base the gameplay off of being a gun-wielding job. The Multitool could also be used that way, but I'll be honest the only truly cool way I've ever seen for those was in GW2 with the engineer toolbelt adapting to which skills you had on your hotbar, and since we don't do that here, can't emulate that.

Neither of these sound appealing nor necessary to me, tbh.

A 5-GCD rotation is still a 5-GCD rotation, just as goon as Dragoon, even if it deals all that damage in a single shot. It will feel no different except just before raidbuffs (and even then, only if you have alternative combos) outside of breaking PvP if ever included there as well.

Meanwhile, RNG still devolves to the same sort of rote precedure as a fixed combo unless both interdependent and offering compensatory elements of control. You need to be able to gamble and actively manage what comes of it to optimize a following gamble against a broader context that is shifting (with time, if nothing else).

[Raikai]

...this would then make the unmerged forms non-options.

IDK... Some people really like their hotbars to have an excessive amount of buttons regardless of redundant or not. Probably wouldn't mind having even more extra rotational mechanics to keybind.

[Carighan]

IDK... Some people really like their hotbars to have an excessive amount of buttons regardless of redundant or not. Probably wouldn't mind having even more extra rotational mechanics to keybind.

Yeah I hate that. Our classes are so simplistic to play compared to other MMORPGs, and somehow it seems all players can think of is "I know! This means we need more oGCDs to press!", as if that increases gameplay depth somehow, magically, inspite of the previous 15 oGCDs not doing that at all.

And then you got other games that produce far deeper gameplay with just 11-15 buttons total and also having the filler combo fire automatically if you're doing nothing else, and also not having oGCDs in the first place the way FFXIV has them (so basically all GCDs), and yet plenty players here feel that must be simpler/easier, since well, no 25+ hotbar buttons and no oGCD-double-weaving. Of course it must be simple...

[Shurrikhan]

IDK... Some people really like their hotbars to have an excessive amount of buttons regardless of redundant or not. Probably wouldn't mind having even more extra rotational mechanics to keybind.

I imagine they would... if the kit were sized around their taking more buttons, such that they take 28 while the rest of us take 21. Far less so if it's designed, as per your stated desire, to hit 28 again even after such consolidations, wherein they'd then have some 35.

Moreover, I really question the devs' ability to "fill that room with more rotational stuff" in any meaningful way. I'd far rather just be able to pick between the lower-20s keycount and upper-20s keycount-with-the-optional-extra-finger-dancing.

[Valence]

I'm not disagreeing with the idea of condensing them. The whole idea of having branches was to offer agency, notably for tanks between aggro generation and damage, and on most melees (including tanks), dot uptime. Now that all of this is gone, the combos retain no purpose beyond tactile feeling, which you'll agree is still different from spamming 1, and I do feel that's the kind of design the devs are left with in the past expansions, the same way that DDR is DDR: it's all about pressing specific keys at certain times like you'd play a music sheet. It's not about agency anymore.

That's why they don't want to consolidate them into a single button, it would ruin the DDR.

[Dakam]

Don't worry, the next DPS is sure to be a Prange DPS, so there's a good chance they will steal the "selfish DPS" fake identity and make MCH a support Prange and the new one the actual selfish one