"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[DendrielConcade]

God this is still going huh? I still think its irresponsible that DPS or Healers pull ahead of the Tank, but a Tank having a hissy fit over the fact is also irresponsible. A DPS under most circumstances, should not be pulling ahead of the Tank though, especially if the Tank/Healer is newer or less geared. I have had situations where a DPS pulling more than I wanted almost got me killed(Healer wasn't as great, I used basically all my MITs on the prior pull so I pulled softer, and unironically had to use Clemency on myself during said pull to not die), and it frustrated me to no end that people are so very insistent on getting things done so fast that they don't read the room. I can understand if a DPS pulls before me because a big button is about to end(RPR Enshroud, VPR Ouroboros, MCH Full Metal Field, etc) but just tossing yourself forward before I do is not going to make it faster notably especially with tanks like me who are ready to gun it from the start. Mind you I'm not going to be the baby crying that they're gonna tank, but I will often be a quietly petty and not pull for an extra second or two as a Tank, or not heal them as a Healer if I'm playing Not-SCH unless they're that low(most early pullers are Melee anyways, they got Second Wind and Bloodbath so they can get that health right back up).

It really does feel like people are fighting to be the most important and fastest in a dungeon group, but DPS don't want to see smaller numbers and simpler kits so they just decide to be said important person without being the one holding aggro, and Healers want a challenge healing and know they can't die as easily so they pull. Its just not that hard to understand, the only DPS in the entire game that benefits from pulling early over the Tank is SAM because their MIT is great and generates Meter, and SGE is the only Healer since they technically can Barrier and use Toxikon and break a barrier to get 4 from the start(or you know, just put a barrier on the tank...). You cannot tell me any other class that benefits pulling earlier than a Tank by like, 1 or 2 seconds before that Tank pulls it off of you besides being like 8 seconds faster in a dungeon clear in the grand scheme of it all.

[MicahZerrshia]

Kinda the consequence of the MSQ literally making you the "chosen one that is the key to everything and saves the world" and catering to that mindset, even in trials you're just summoning 7 "dudes" to help a bit.
No wonder this game has such a staggering amount of people with main character syndrome.

FFXI was like that too in the 75 era, we were THE chosen one, THE one to save the world and we didn't nearly have half the problems XIV has.

The issue here is there are simply no concequences for this kind of bad behavior or lazy gameplay, nor do we need to rely on other players to do things. SE actually seems to be pushing for ppl who just want to do what they want, everyone else be damned. You cannot have an mmo where there is no accountablity from either the company or the community (you were a entitled or just flat out bad player who refused to learn, good luck getting anything done in xi) and expect some ppl to even try. That is unfortunately a trend in mmos these days because these companies see big money in catering to this type of player, the ones who will shovel cash at them for item shop items but barely stick around, vs long term players who see an mmo as a long term game they regularly enjoy engaging with. XIV is like 2 steps away from becoming just another kmmo slopfest.

tldr: It's the entitlement, not the story that is the biggest problem here

[SomeGuy22]

(...)You cannot tell me any other class that benefits pulling earlier than a Tank(...)

While not benefitting the class itself, a melee or ranged pulling and then using Arm's Length does benefit the tank by giving them free mitigation, so that's pretty cool. Whenever that happens when I'm tanking I feel like I just found Santa on DF

[Grimforth]

Honestly the fact that it's not getting through people's heads that the YPYT mentality is a bannable offense, and people are still doing it. Tells me that they need to make the punishment more stricter.

[DendrielConcade]

While not benefitting the class itself, a melee or ranged pulling and then using Arm's Length does benefit the tank by giving them free mitigation, so that's pretty cool. Whenever that happens when I'm tanking I feel like I just found Santa on DF

Melee and Phys Range can use Arm's Length if they want but under certain circumstances its not going to help much(Magic Mobs unaffected by Slow, SCH Fairy healing said DPS losing health over the Tank, WHM Holy negating a portion of that Slow Duration), but if you desire to then sure, that is a benefit all Melee/Phys Range can give for pulling early if they so desired. It is on a 120s CD though so if its down then I can still justify a DPS shouldn't be pulling before a Tank.

[Absurdity]

FFXI was like that too in the 75 era, we were THE chosen one, THE one to save the world and we didn't nearly have half the problems XIV has.

The issue here is there are simply no concequences for this kind of bad behavior or lazy gameplay, nor do we need to rely on other players to do things. SE actually seems to be pushing for ppl who just want to do what they want, everyone else be damned. You cannot have an mmo where there is no accountablity from either the company or the community (you were a entitled or just flat out bad player who refused to learn, good luck getting anything done in xi) and expect some ppl to even try. That is unfortunately a trend in mmos these days because these companies see big money in catering to this type of player, the ones who will shovel cash at them for item shop items but barely stick around, vs long term players who see an mmo as a long term game they regularly enjoy engaging with. XIV is like 2 steps away from becoming just another kmmo slopfest.

tldr: It's the entitlement, not the story that is the biggest problem here

Notice the "catering to that mindset"
Of course it's not just due to the MSQ.

[ForteNightshade]

These are two different issues. A good tank will give pace while staying alive. This post is about dps deciding they should pull for the tank. My opinion that it is not a way to speed the run up. It takes 2-3 GCDs to capture those mobs back as they spread out. It is one thing complaining that some tanks are slow and another giving credence that DPS should be the ones dictating the pace. Even with a slow tank I would never pull for him. The dungeon lasts 20 minutes at worst. Is it really so hard to be courteous for that length of time?

Two GCDs? A DPS is lucky to pull aggro off me with a single provoke and literally nothing else. If you're aoe-ing you'll catch everything eventually with pretty much zero effort. Not like it even matters if a mob bops a DPS or healer a couple times. They hardly do any damage. Which is why both roles pull in the first place. Dungeons simply aren't threatening.

It takes 2-3 GCDs if the mobs get spread out, which is invariably the case. I have said this on more than one occasion in this thread. Threat is not the issue, range is.

How exactly do you take less than 1 GCD?

Who cares? Just bunch them up and let the DPS take an auto or two while you gather everything. Now if a DPS is running around like a headless chicken or off in Narnia refusing to bring the mob closer to make your job easier, then by all means. Leave them to their new friend. I very much doubt you'll see much opposition here about that. But outright refusing to pick up aggro is just bad tanking. This isn't other MMOs where if you grab aggro you risk killing yourself or the healer. A three pack pull does next to nothing. Especially nowadays with all the sustain tanks have. If I only tanked a single pack, I might as well remove every CD I have off my bar. They're practically useless given how little damage I'd be taking.

[syldon]

Honestly the fact that it's not getting through people's heads that the YPYT mentality is a bannable offense, and people are still doing it. Tells me that they need to make the punishment more stricter.

This the most ridiculous notion I have ever read in any MMO forum. How can you ban someone for a cause and effect that you started. Give your head a shake.

[VeyaAkemi]

This the most ridiculous notion I have ever read in any MMO forum. How can you ban someone for a cause and effect that you started. Give your head a shake.

https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

・Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.
Key Points
Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately.

For example, the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy (or the opposing team/players in PvP content):

"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."
"I don't think we can clear this anyway, so I'll just get hit by the enemy attack and go AFK after I'm knocked out."
"I'm going to join the opposing team as a healer and do nothing so my friends on the other team can win the PvP content."

If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

Please note that Square Enix may conduct investigations and issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed if the act has been confirmed publicly through online video, streaming services, or other means.

Two things to note about this: Intent is important, a DPS pulling can be safely assumed to have the best interest of the group, that is a quicker run through the instance, in mind, you considering that behavior uncooperative is irrelevant to that point, meanwhile, refusing to perform your textbook role, which I must stress, it's not to lead or to pull, it's to tank, is very clearly a sabotage of an individual.

I also highlighted example 1 because I don't think, and do say if you think otherwise, "I don't want to <perform my role> because I don't like how this player is acting", is meaningfully different from the example listed.

[Astronis]

Two things to note about this: Intent is important, a DPS pulling can be safely assumed to have the best interest of the group, that is a quicker run through the instance,

That is not safe to assume. I've had Sages pull bosses because "muh toxicon stacks" which is not at all in the best interests of the group when they can get those stacks just as easily by shielding the tank. DPS pull ahead sometimes because they're not thinking about anyone but themselves, or just straight up not thinking at all. Note that I'm not on the side of the tanks that flip their stances off because a DPS got two steps ahead of them, just pointing out you really cannot assume every DPS that pulls ahead is doing so with nothing but selfless grace and love in their heart and every tank that doesn't pull aggro off a DPS is doing it out of spite and bruised ego.