Let us use PVP kits in PVE

[ty_taurus]

No thanks, I would not want to use PVP kits on the main game. They suit pvp and compared to the main game I find rather boring to play

Well it’s a good thing the system would be optional, right? You can choose regular kits while I choose PVP kits. Everyone wins.

[BokoToloko]

There is a bit of both actually. Unscripted and unpredictable pvp is one side of it, but the pvp job kits and the battle system used there is also another facet of what makes pvp what it is, else without it you'd have the same boring pve slop than in pve if every job was a boring copy of each other and the only metric was damage.

PVP job kits are made even simpler than in PvE to allow more flexibility against unscripted and unpredictable scenarios. If you copied that to PVE you would have the same PvE only with an even simpler and less nuanced rotation (which would be an achievement in on itself, considering current design). And from what few buttons you get in PVP, you would use even fewer in PVE because CC is practically worthless in that enviroment. What difference there would be among classes would just pale against the fact each and every job would play like a husk of it's former self. Or a husk of a husk, for certain classes. Different gameplay, equally miserable.

The PvP kit works because it's made for PvP, if they had the PvE kit, most players would be struggling to complete combos and casts left and right and you would be very lucky if you even managed to land even half of your burst window.

[ty_taurus]

PVP job kits are made even simpler than in PvE to allow more flexibility against unscripted and unpredictable scenarios. If you copied that to PVE you would have the same PvE only with an even simpler and less nuanced rotation (which would be an achievement). And from what few buttons you get in PVP, you would use even fewer in PVE because CC is practically worthless in that enviroment. What difference there would be among classes would just pale against the fact each and every job would play like a husk of it's former self. Or a husk of a husk, for certain classes. Different gameplay, equally miserable.

The PvP kit works because it's made for PvP, if they had the PvE kit, most players would be struggling to complete combos and cast left and right.

The healers would disagree. Try doing a deep dungeon with nothing but Glare slop and cooldowns that take way too long and let me know if you think that’s more engaging than PvP.

I’d take a 12 second Eukrasian Dosis DOT that gives me a barter over a 30 second DOT that doesn’t. I’d take a 15 second CD Phlegma that combos into Psyche over a 40 second CD Phlegma and a 60 second cooldown Psyche. I’d take having an OGCD Toxikon every 10 seconds that upgrades into a stronger Toxikon II over an uptime tool that I only get 3 off per battle. I’d take a DPS positive Pneuma with Panhaima attached over a DPS neutral Pneuma that is really just a glorified Cure III.

All of those sound like a dream come true to me. Of course, being optional means that no one has to choose either for the listed content. I might not get 8-man or 24-man content out of it, but then nothing of value to me would be lost in that circumstance anyway.

[Exmo]

No thank you. It's oil and water.

[Garruss]

Well it’s a good thing the system would be optional, right? You can choose regular kits while I choose PVP kits. Everyone wins.

To balance for both would be too much work for the dev team

[ty_taurus]

To balance for both would be too much work for the dev team

Balance for what? FATEs, MSQ instances, and Solo deep dungeons? What are we balancing for? All the content I listed is either when you're alone, or in content that already throws balance out the window. I've seen some of the new phantom job actions. Predict? You can't trust a healer with an attack with a greater frequency that once per 30 seconds, but you'll give a potential self-nuke to players in group content?

[Valence]

I remember when PvE and PvP attacks were the same. They had to include the PvP potency or effects in the PvE tooltips. But an issue with it is just how it bloats the tooltips.

Now we do have kits completely separate and split between pve and pvp which has been the case since SB, which is fortunate because they don't have to dump everything into the same tooltips anymore.

I don't entirely agree. In Heavensward and Stormblood, I couldn't shake the feeling that there were tanks that "believed" in using tank stance 100% of the time, and tanks that "believed" in using DPS stance almost all the time if not 100% of the time. This split didn't seemed the least bit healthy for the game, because how do you balance content when you have two polar opposite types of tanks dealing significantly different amounts of damage? This was compounded by the tank stance tanks sometimes actually being really bad - for example, spamming 1 button, or using an enmity combo 100% of the time so they weren't applying DoTs or anything.

The meta was doing as much damage as possible without losing aggro. This generally meant running content in dps stance and adjusting on aggro with the enmity combos, as seen on most savage bosses for example. Those players tended to apply the same logic in dungeons and tanked all the mobs in dps stance, which allowed to kill them faster, and also didn't really matter anyway because AoE didn't have a split between aggro and dps combo, so the only metric was to actually survive and not shoot your healer in the foot in the process by lacking mitigation. Resource management was a thing, and having multiple variables like doing more damage at the expense of defense would mean potentially losing healer damage and on solo target, losing more dps combos. But on average considering the amount of enmity generated by aggro combos comparatively to tank stances, you'd try and stay in dps stance most of the time, and use tank stance for other things (prog, last resort, adjusting to bad teams, etc). This was actually a source of a lot of skill expression as far as i'm concerned.

In dungeons and normal content though? Totally irrelevant because anybody running in anything could clear a dungeon, and if a tank/healer pair would struggle, then they could fall back to tank stance and no cleric (and that's what most casuals did by default anyway, the tanks in dps stance in dungeons were mostly raiders). All of what it did was offering options for playstyles and for every skill level. Would it still work today with how everybody would hammer to tanks that they NEED to run dungeons in dps stance? I don't honestly know how peer pressure would work there. That's how the changes that have been brought over into the game actually damaged the community, because they only catered to the lowest denominator and removed all options for higher skill levels even in low difficulty content. I call that a big loss personally.

Then there was a Summoner I met that, according to others, was not doing much damage at all. While they might get away with that in a dungeon, it still demonstrated that the jobs were so complicated for some players that they hardly did any damage whatsoever.

So what? As long as they had fun playing their job fantasy and pressing their buttons, why should it matter? Today too there is huge dps gaps between groups even though everything has been watered down. I can agree that perhaps the size of the gap has diminished but why does it matter? People went through casual content just fine. People weren't dumb either.

Then there is Dark Knight. I played that very well (somehow) and it was a lot of fun, but while playing it I always thought to myself "there is no way most people will play this correctly".

I don't think jobs should be designed to be "played by most people correctly". Else with that mentality, just remove anything that's above casual dungeons currently in the game because extreme, savage, ultimate, criterion, aren't designed for most people to clear them either.

I had this feeling that they needed to make them at least moderately more intuitive so your average dungeon players were actually playing them relatively decently. Obviously, they went overboard with this. I meant that it should be, say, intuitive 75% of the way but then have room for skill expression after that. Instead, you have it like Warrior and Dark Knight are now, where it's hard not to be a resilient tank as a WAR, and DRK literally can just press everything off cooldown and that's it, so the skill expression barely exists. And I don't need to explain Summoner.

More intuitive is good and this game has an atrocious UI and a big onboarding problem in its accessibility. For instance the game never tried to explain the mechanics of jobs in more details to players because the game assumes that everybody has limited intelligence. The real factor is whether or not a player will stop reading and skip, which already happens on tooltips, but assuming that everybody is going to do it and that they should put everybody on the same level by leaving everybody figure things out for themselves is equally dumb, and i'd argue it actually only push players to remain uneducated. Why try go look up guides and do all that homework out of the game if the game doesn't even try? There are a lot of ways to introduce players to the mechanics of a job that don't have to go through the Actions & Trait menu and tooltips. If anything, reading tooltips one by one, making sense of what they say, and trying to put them altogether to see the bigger picture is actually hard work and the tutorial help each job gets is nowhere close enough to what the game should provide.

The irony is found when you look at brainless jobs like SMN or VPR, two of the most recent job designs in the last expansions, and they do in fact have the most complicated Actions & Traits menus to ever grace this game because every button is automated and part of a bigger series of transformations and systems that totally bloat their outdated menus. Comparatively you have the old HW job tooltips that were a LOT simpler, but the jobs could be very esoteric to understand (old BLM, DRK...) and play well, because the game didn't try to explain, again. So, accessibility, ten times yes, because no matter the expansion, jobs have been a nightmare to understand for new players for diverse reasons that have shifted, but not gotten much better. Only the skill ceiling has been lowered (or outright nuked), but the accessibility is still terrible, notably for BLM even throughout the reworks, because what the reworks did was to lower the ceiling, and not to make it more accessible to actually understand and get into.

DRK back in HW was interesting to me because on top of the tank stance and aggro mechanics that as I explained above could create an organic scale of skill expression, DRK also had the Darkside mechanic on top of it, which was very complicated to manage and play well for a lot of casual players. Did this mean casuals shied away from DRK? No, in fact casual DRKs were everywhere, dungeons, story raids, everything, just living the class fantasy. How did they deal with Darkside? They didn't turn it on, or only briefly to access the few skills behind like CnS/Abyssal. And they went through dungeons just fine otherwise. How did the devs react to that for SB? They nuked the MP mechanic behind Darkside and remove a whole bracket of skill specifically addressed to a certain player subset.

PVP job kits are made even simpler than in PvE to allow more flexibility against unscripted and unpredictable scenarios. If you copied that to PVE you would have the same PvE only with an even simpler and less nuanced rotation (which would be an achievement in on itself, considering current design). And from what few buttons you get in PVP, you would use even fewer in PVE because CC is practically worthless in that enviroment. What difference there would be among classes would just pale against the fact each and every job would play like a husk of it's former self. Or a husk of a husk, for certain classes. Different gameplay, equally miserable.

The PvP kit works because it's made for PvP, if they had the PvE kit, most players would be struggling to complete combos and casts left and right and you would be very lucky if you even managed to land even half of your burst window.

I agree but I feel that you're shifting the goalposts here. I merely pointed out that the reason it works in pvp isn't just the lack of script.

This is also why as pointed out by the OP pvp skills are extremely well suited to the deep dungeon model actually, which offers what standard pve doesn't.

[AmiableApkallu]

The healers would disagree. Try doing a deep dungeon with nothing but Glare slop and cooldowns that take way too long and let me know if you think that’s more engaging than PvP.

I’d take a 12 second Eukrasian Dosis DOT that gives me a barter over a 30 second DOT that doesn’t. I’d take a 15 second CD Phlegma that combos into Psyche over a 40 second CD Phlegma and a 60 second cooldown Psyche. I’d take having an OGCD Toxikon every 10 seconds that upgrades into a stronger Toxikon II over an uptime tool that I only get 3 off per battle. I’d take a DPS positive Pneuma with Panhaima attached over a DPS neutral Pneuma that is really just a glorified Cure III.

This thread should really be titled, "Let me use PvP SGE in PvE."

It borders on insulting to bring up Glare slop when PvP WHM in PvE would still be nothing but Glare slop and cooldowns.

[Halivel]

This thread should really be titled, "Let me use PvP SGE in PvE."

It borders on insulting to bring up Glare slop when PvP WHM in PvE would still be nothing but Glare slop and cooldowns.

Yeah... PvP WHM is still Glare and Afflatus Misery for the most part, and dot being replaced with jumping attack. The only "new" thing for WHM on offensive side of the skills is probably the transformation skill - which can be actually pretty nifty in deep dungeon I guess, but it's still essentially the same job..?

I'm also not sure I'd enjoy using DNC's, BRD's or BLM's PvP kit in PvE, for example, which are the three DPS jobs I play the most by far.

As an optional feature it's not something I'd have been against if it was a thing, but it feels very dependant on the job.

[VeyaAkemi]

I will say that the idea of having PvP Zantetsuken for FATE bosses would be hilarious, since it isn't an instakill effect as it deals "100% of their maximum HP", so nothing would be immune to it, I would be down for it for that alone.