Summoner - What it needs.

[Anvaire]

only took those colors cause of gems/carbuncle colors of crystals they those summons preprosant. problem is there other crystals they keep ignoring lightning, ice, water and fact that carbuncle doesnt even attack anymore

I honestly don't think adding another 3 Arcanum summons will change anything at all, unless they also change how the ebb and flow of the job works. We have already seen this with the additon of Bahamut Zero, functionally, nothing changes just visuals. There is potenc differnce between bahamut, and Bahamut Zero but unltimately it changes nothing.

I am all for variety, heck id even go as far to say add the rest of the primals onwards, however, i still think unless they functionally change how the job works, adding new summons will literally change nothing but visuals.

The issue is and has never been a summon variety issue, but rather a mechanical one. The base machanics of the job needs updating to accomodate summons in a way so that they are functionally different and not just thunder Garuda, Ice titan or Water Ifrit.

If they cant do that then all they are giving is reskins which is effectively the same change they gave us in Dawntrail. IMO if this is the case they may as well not add anything at all.

So whats the solution?

IMO its redesigning the job so every action is summoning or relating to powering up summons. Ruin for example could call carbucles to attack and then de-summon. The demi could rotate, but its power is derrived by the number of arcanum summons that have been used. Each arcanum summon could also add for a filler.

I think there would need to be a mechanic that allows us to build a resource to spend on summons. Ina system like this, it would be really dynamic and choices would matter. Id go as far to add a true Demi Hydelyn and Demi Zodiark but have them available based on the use of 6 arcanum summons.

I would also have it so the carbuncle you summon attacks and you have off spec special attacks you can command it to do. Id even go as far as allowing it to be the form of multiple Summons and have its ability changed to match.

IF we stuck with the Garduda, titan and ifrit, then perhaps have a grand summon option where that arcanum gets powered up into the SHB raid versions. (even if we didnt stick to the three id go with this) Tier 1 - current > tier 2 shb > tier 3 > Warring triad. But functionally it would allow for planning, build and spending of resource.

Im probably not explaining this well, but bottom line is i want a summoner to feel like it summons, and that those summons are a meaningful choice. With the flexibility to decide not to summon, or to change what summon is there or to empower the summon in some way.

[Milea]

Bring old summoner back.

At least it was fun. You admit new summoner is not good, that should be enough to understand.

Btw old summoner did differentiate the egis. Over time that was gutted I guess cause of whining?


But yes as stated by others adding leviathan, ramuh etc right now is meaningless cause the system wouldn't have them meaningfully different. People LOVE to whine about new bahamut is literally the same and then on the other hand beg for more summons.

I am sorry but having the color blue as I spam RUIN RUIN RUIN doesn't make me fool good or have fun.

[PyurBlue]

1.Old Summoner is dead. no it should never come back. if it does come back it need to be completely different caster-job. saying that outright. cause summoner class always been bad ever sense realm reborn new summoner is not any better cause you refuse give us anymore gem summons would result in more interesting game play instead you gave us a job that is only 25% finished brain dead to play its not even full-job at this point

SB SMN was fun and certainly better than what came after. Bringing it back would at least be an improvement.

I never understood the whole Summoner doesn't summon enough argument. Having more summons doesn't change much, especially if they're just animations. Going in the opposite direction with less summons that require more management on the part of the player feels like it has more potential. Though I'm not really sure what the summons should do. FF14 can only handle so much complexity before the netcode is overwhelmed. Maybe having the summons as mostly autonomous but reliant on the player for positioning orders and resources like MP.

[Supersnow845]

what is this? seriously i said 10 and 11 . and 12 was apart of final fantasy tactics universe everything in 12 was spot on if we talkin about final fantasy tactics lore. however 16 I played it making final fantasy game equalivant a kaiju. no 8 ismt a summoner even thou i will say fact being able transform into one have massive kaiju' battles was pretty cool. still wasn't a summoner

What?

Why does 12 being in the tactics universe have literally anything to do with anything (side note 14 is in the tactics universe as well). I’m pointing out this series has literally never agreed on what a SMN actually is. The older games had a somewhat unified idea then the newer games all had a totally different idea. 3 4 5 and 9 don’t look anything like 10 11 12 and 16 whether you consider the dominants as summoners by proxy.

You can’t just point to an old game and go “I want that as SMN” because none of the games agree on what a SMN even is. You seem to want SMN to be based on Rydia (despite pointing out how good 11’s SMN is that decidedly DOESNT act like rydia) but few games even agree on a core premise for SMN other than “summon things” which was true for both old and new 14 SMN so isn’t even an argument

[HanakoTheGoth]

SB SMN was fun and certainly better than what came after. Bringing it back would at least be an improvement.

I never understood the whole Summoner doesn't summon enough argument. Having more summons doesn't change much, especially if they're just animations. Going in the opposite direction with less summons that require more management on the part of the player feels like it has more potential. Though I'm not really sure what the summons should do. FF14 can only handle so much complexity before the netcode is overwhelmed. Maybe having the summons as mostly autonomous but reliant on the player for positioning orders and resources like MP.

Try what game other then 14 limits player choices the summoner job to only 3 summons if was up to me i make both sides happy you get dots i get my summons. no pain no foul. not gonna defend yoshi dev team when they released this. cause should of done more shouldnt removed as much they did. pretty wouldnt been happy if fester was same. you had your dots. shadowflare and bane was still a thing

[HanakoTheGoth]

Bring old summoner back.

At least it was fun. You admit new summoner is not good, that should be enough to understand.

Btw old summoner did differentiate the egis. Over time that was gutted I guess cause of whining?


But yes as stated by others adding leviathan, ramuh etc right now is meaningless cause the system wouldn't have them meaningfully different. People LOVE to whine about new bahamut is literally the same and then on the other hand beg for more summons.

I am sorry but having the color blue as I spam RUIN RUIN RUIN doesn't make me fool good or have fun.

most people whining about how egi's how they looked . not so much what they did. that your mistaken we wanted more summons then we didnt want this name one summoner like class or job in any final fantasy game had floating chicken nugget following you around masking itself as titan

ever seen that mean when they compare titan 11 to titan 14. what happened? that was the problem. do think any player wished for this new summoner. no we simply wanted summoner to be summoner have more summons

not hard to understand if played any final fantasy game in past. you wouldnt understand summons never limited to 3 nor did bahamut need reskin. cause creative team is that dense

[HanakoTheGoth]

What?

Why does 12 being in the tactics universe have literally anything to do with anything (side note 14 is in the tactics universe as well). I’m pointing out this series has literally never agreed on what a SMN actually is. The older games had a somewhat unified idea then the newer games all had a totally different idea. 3 4 5 and 9 don’t look anything like 10 11 12 and 16 whether you consider the dominants as summoners by proxy.

You can’t just point to an old game and go “I want that as SMN” because none of the games agree on what a SMN even is. You seem to want SMN to be based on Rydia (despite pointing out how good 11’s SMN is that decidedly DOESNT act like rydia) but few games even agree on a core premise for SMN other than “summon things” which was true for both old and new 14 SMN so isn’t even an argument

I dont know what pissed you off so much but listen I understand where you come from i do I dont like what they did either. but as long as this job is called summoner players gonna have expectations. old summoner did fail in that causes egi's where butt ugly. didnt feel powerful in fact they were embaressing have out how disgusting they looked. name one game outside 14 were we had floating tard as a summon masking itself as titan name it?


I liked bane i like maimsa i like shadowflare i like fact fester hit like trunk was not happy took those away. but even then we spammed ruin when dots where up. no matter what they do mostly like keep spamming ruin cause it is what it is (atfer we use couple abilities of course. I what i dont like is fact pets we had at the time where shit they where UGLY it felt bad had floating tard. an angry burning chicken and whatever that wind crappy thing calling themselfs garuda


If you ever played 11 summoner you can see why people were PISSED garuda looked fantastic in 11 but in 14 in was toilet paper it was creative slop makes my head hurt that you everyone on here defending old summoner dont remeber how your pets looked like cause i do I played it was garbage not saying new summoner even better it also garbage what can you expect from 14 dev team

[HanakoTheGoth]

I took a break cause clearly your pissing me off. but now im back. lets continue this debate. you say old summoner is like 11? are you crazy? have you even played it cause if you played it you dare not make that claim. sometimes think your just saying stuff cause your just trolling trying piss people off. if ff14 summoner is like you say then tell me why isnt garuda putting blink on whole party why isnt titan putting stone skin everyone in party why isnt ifirit buffing whole parties damage why in hell we dont have summons made summoner summoner in first place

well good job now I'm mad. sense when did 14 EVER let you challange every single summon to 1v1 combat. force them submit. no not talkin about those "Egis" I talkin about actually actually good looking summons. thats right never

we had ifirt, titan, shiva, leviathan, garuda fenrir diablos cat sith, alexander odin and levithan they had alot of abilities every single one of them were awesome.

DON'T YOU DARE EVER claim thats 14 old or new summoner ever close to how good was bloody lie unless you have played ff11 your talkin trash at this point there was no dots on ff11 summoner unless support job other classes even then they where not that damaging cause your enfeeble skill wasnt as high or not high enough at this point your trollin mate your trollin cant see different between summoning titan in ff11 and summoning floating tard in 14 then get your eyes checked have you played ff11 retain 2025 cause if you had wouldnt claiming this crap

cause I hated the art work I hated lack creativity and slop summoner got. I hate new summoner cause we only have 3 summons no reason why there should be reskin of bahamut when old bahamut looked better in fact pisses me off we didnt get single new gem summon but we got this creative trash bahamut no one wished or asked they know what we want we been asking for it sense realm reborn new summons I hate class quests summoner got because they all trash. you get fight egi didnt make you feel like achieved anything it was egi was ugly egi everything was given to you never had fight for shit

People play summoner cause they want summon stuff and feel powerful dont like that have them make you new caster job with your dots. old summon should never come back, cause we have same issue as before. yoshi-p wont give us anymore summons he cant count higher then 3 as long as we are stuck using garuda, ifirt titan it never ever be a true summoner class


My personal opinion whole job needs be reworked including class quests i get that your angry cause current rotation is really dumbed down. but dont make that claim that final fantasy 11 summoner was ever like 14s again. cause those are fighting words seriously go play ff11 summoner do that 11 summoner quest watch was most tedious quest in the game. fight every single primal in a 1v1 battle. get fenrir fighting everyone of them again get catt sith, siren alexander and odin diablos all summons say that 11 summoner anything what we been given in 14 fails in greatiest in 11

11 was older game. these devs no shame. its absolutely disrespect what we got. even if they brought back old summoner trash is still trash end of the day

[HanakoTheGoth]

For me, I like that current SMN at least has a striking resemblance to some of my favorite FF summoners - call down powerful being, something happens etc. At its base that’s a good starting point. I think the issue is:

1. The casting rotation during/between big summons needs to be more diverse - they have a good idea with Ifrit phase’s slow, harder hitting casts, Titan’s quick OGCD’s etc., but between Bahamut and Phoenix, it’s the same thing, over and over. More small, unique Primal phases featuring diverse interactions from the player would be a step in the right direction.

2. We have too much Bahamut, and the big phases are essentially the same. The Bahamut phase should play differently than Phoenix, and we do NOT need two Bahamuts. Replace Solar with another epic primal and give us unique rotations/interactions for each.

3. Add Evoker-style mechanics, allowing the SMN to take on aspects of Primals, much like Clive in FF16. This could be a fun way to add close-range combat into the mix, or at least add some diverse flavor to the job.

I totally agree with you. the rework was okey just they didnt give it there all. they should of put more thought into it instead releasing it like they did

[Supersnow845]

I really feel you need to calm down because at this point you are making yourself angry over points I never made

My only point so far is that you seem to like how modern SMN better represents old style summoners like rydia but also point out how good 11 is. SMN as a class archetype can be broadly divided into two classes

1) flashy raidwides- 3, 4, 5 and 9
2) stay on the field and do something- 10, 11, 12, old 14 and 16

My only point is that old SMN was CLOSER to the design of 11 where things actually stayed on the field and conferred advantage, new SMN is arguably closer to rydia but that makes it further from 11.

Anything else is you making yourself angry about points I didn’t make I have literally never made a comment on my opinion of old SMN, only that new SMN isn’t necessarily better than it