Summoner - What it needs.

[AmiableApkallu]

The core problem is that there's simply nothing for a summoner and their summons to do in this game, as it currently stands.

There's no MP management, so there's no need to choose between summons based on how you're trying to draw down your MP for the duration of the fight. There's no real concept of aspected damage, so there's no need to choose between Ifrit and Shiva based on elemental weaknesses, or to avoid Titan if all the enemies are flying. There's only limited room to make cast times a thing when SE seems hellbent on designing encounters that force you to move around constantly.

Whatever model of summoning you choose (I personally think of Rydia over Yuna), I'm not seeing how you make summons appreciably different from each other, except for in visual effects. And that's the real tragedy.

[Mecia]

How would you even add 4 additional summons, making it 9, while meaningfully differentiating them, adhering to button limits and the 2 minute cycle?

[HanakoTheGoth]

Yes and I don’t think that either approach is wrong or right. Why should the older approach be used just because it’s older. Like it’s basically 3 4 5 and 9 versus 10 11 12 with 14 employing both designs throughout its history and 16 kinda straddling both but leaning towards 10 11 and 12

I don’t really thing you can point to a definitive identity of SMN either way by just saying “look at what it was like in the past”

Especially since the arguable most iconic summoner in the series is yuna and yuna is very much the pet style permanent summon, not the “do a magic attack and disappear”

how old are you? you know your being extremely disrespectful to know. how can sit here not understand how it effects people. who fall in love grew up playing these jobs. if it was not for those games final fantasy 14 would never exist if wasn't the deep love players had for classic rpgs that games. summons always have been apart this franchise every sense final fantasy 3 in nes days. its really disrespectful the whole old summoner the concept as a whole was insult to any and every final fantasy fan who ever enjoyed the summoner role.

Yes I get you like your dots. never said they dont belong on summoner in fact welcome a fulfilling damage rotation. wasnt for 3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11 there wouldnt be a 14 this game would not exist if those were not well recieved loved by the players. no it is not wrong for players loved those game want there favorite to perform like they always have. to have abiltiies and pets they always had . like imagine we must felt when they released old summoner and realm reborn. we got those "Iges" It was disappointiment complete a total failure we didnt want a clone of a warlock from wow. we wanted a summoner job. if final fantasy 11 managed to do it . there no execuse whatever what we got. that feeling you felt when they took old summoner away from you was same feeling disappointiment we felt when they released old summoner in first place if they named that class anything other then summoner wouldnt not got much heat as it did

like imagine if your black mage main they didnt give you fire, blizzard or thunder you had only scathe. thats how it feels to play summoner back then

The core problem is that there's simply nothing for a summoner and their summons to do in this game, as it currently stands.

There's no MP management, so there's no need to choose between summons based on how you're trying to draw down your MP for the duration of the fight. There's no real concept of aspected damage, so there's no need to choose between Ifrit and Shiva based on elemental weaknesses, or to avoid Titan if all the enemies are flying. There's only limited room to make cast times a thing when SE seems hellbent on designing encounters that force you to move around constantly.

Whatever model of summoning you choose (I personally think of Rydia over Yuna), I'm not seeing how you make summons appreciably different from each other, except for in visual effects. And that's the real tragedy.

they dont need be different here if they gonna be different here ya go - make shiva, levithan and ifirit close range summons and that combo with ifirit then make garada. titan and ramuh range. there ya go dont need be that different other there flashy moves and big damage. only ones need be different is bahamut, pheonix and odin watch makes sense as long they large amount aoe damage i dont care happy see happy see thing go boom. pretty sure you can guess what odin gonna be like

How would you even add 4 additional summons, making it 9, while meaningfully differentiating them, adhering to button limits and the 2 minute cycle?

3 of them are actually gem summons 1 of them is actually bahamut pheonix having its own phase. still have that annoying . what ive seen summoners full rotation at the moment is not even a min long . all they really need to do is increase the cool-down between gem summons you be alright besides if wanted a dot class they couldnt easily make 3rd button that is dot that changes name every time you summon for ext if summon titan dot becomes rasp if your summon ifirt it becomes burn they all stack as long as it has different name . all really need do then bring back bane, and change fester back everyone is happy personal they dont need b that different just need feel good using long side other summons that it. as long blow up stuff do alot of damage i dont care

you get your dots back i get my summons everyone is happy with all new summons you can put up 6 different dots on the target with 1 button cause everytime different summon your primary dot changes into new dot without extremely button bloating your hotbar without having 50 button rotation they probably do same to ruin where ruin deals animation changes depending on gem summon you summon for duration but anyway pretty ppl find way to complain.



Best way to explain this to all of you is - Black mage has "Fire" and "Blizzard" wtihout job traits at there base they just do damage what makes them different well one is fire and other is ice. does there need be any difference. not really they do damage your damage deal. how you do damage not is not important question is does it feel good cause explosions. hurts really bad. yes thats why ppl play dps jobs first place. make things suffer we dont need complex math rocket science. we make things suffer, its that simple. who cares how its done as long as things die. keep it simple. no need for complex rocket science

All there needs to be for summoners large ride wide damage - and different summons do same thing just look different and "Ooooh Shiny" blows up the feild so dont care cause your hurting stuff your damage dealer. no need to think just press buttons hurt stuff at its core that is what it is? what else do you want? like seriously

[Absurdity]

Actually hilarious how this thread turned into shadowboxing strawmen after 2 entire posts.

[SieyaM]

Yes and I don’t think that either approach is wrong or right. Why should the older approach be used just because it’s older. Like it’s basically 3 4 5 and 9 versus 10 11 12 with 14 employing both designs throughout its history and 16 kinda straddling both but leaning towards 10 11 and 12

I don’t really thing you can point to a definitive identity of SMN either way by just saying “look at what it was like in the past”

Especially since the arguable most iconic summoner in the series is yuna and yuna is very much the pet style permanent summon, not the “do a magic attack and disappear”

This is specifically adressing your criticism saying that summoner isn't true to form because the summons are not operating as pets, and I am simply saying that is not true. I wouldn't consider Yuna to be a pet style summoner either. Summons in X have a fixed duration and while you can control the for a time it's at the expense of the rest of the party. They are not permanent fixtures in combat and Yuna does not control one every moment, she in fact has a plethora of skills and magic at her disposal outside of it.

[SieyaM]

On the topic of the number of summons, I think it would be an interesting idea to incorporate a way to collect and slot in 3 from the ones we have collected. Maybe have some kind of special trial that summoners could do to gain them and collect them in a book of summons or something and then allow us to choose which 3 we want to use and a way to change them in and out. It would allow for some kind of player expression through character and job design but this would also give summoners more to do than other jobs so it would never happen. There is always the rumor of 8.0 changing up all the jobs and really focusing on identity so who knows what will happen.

[HanakoTheGoth]

On the topic of the number of summons, I think it would be an interesting idea to incorporate a way to collect and slot in 3 from the ones we have collected. Maybe have some kind of special trial that summoners could do to gain them and collect them in a book of summons or something and then allow us to choose which 3 we want to use and a way to change them in and out. It would allow for some kind of player expression through character and job design but this would also give summoners more to do than other jobs so it would never happen. There is always the rumor of 8.0 changing up all the jobs and really focusing on identity so who knows what will happen.

I totally agree with you. any additional summons added to summoner should be hard one in a solo like trail. so gives summoner sense of achievement. this another reason ff14 summoner never be as great as FF11s also believe summoner should have a mount quest some sort if not gonna have odin at least let summoner do a quest shepinir

[AmiableApkallu]

All there needs to be for summoners large ride wide damage - and different summons do same thing just look different and "Ooooh Shiny" blows up the feild so dont care cause your hurting stuff your damage dealer. no need to think just press buttons hurt stuff at its core that is what it is? what else do you want? like seriously

(emphasis mine)

I want to have to think which button I should push next, actually.

"Shiny" is all good an well, but I can get that just by watching a movie or TV show. A game should make me think (or test my reflexes, or something).

[HanakoTheGoth]

(emphasis mine)

I want to have to think which button I should push next, actually.

"Shiny" is all good an well, but I can get that just by watching a movie or TV show. A game should make me think (or test my reflexes, or something).

that sounds to stressful to me. all that thinking game should be full. sure i guess make one of summons activate as a execute so when monsters or bosses or low hp you summon it big damage sense does more damage then other summons in that phase. over all basic idea of damage dealing isnt to think but to destroy things as fast as possible. only thing really should think about is quickest route to it. so maybe having summons somewhat act the same may make ifirit not feel so awful when use it cause other two are ranged ifirit sometimes feels out of place. but if had other summons that support its in your face style then it make alot more sense

sounds stressful. games about fun. sure be nice have abilities do different things but in the end all about destroying stuff really fast

[SieyaM]

(emphasis mine)

I want to have to think which button I should push next, actually.

"Shiny" is all good an well, but I can get that just by watching a movie or TV show. A game should make me think (or test my reflexes, or something).

Honestly, none of the jobs require any kind of thought. It's all memorizing and executing a rotation, some are just easier to memorize than others.