League levels of toxic behavour in game.

[Merrigan]

The rigidity of a system is not really determined by the potential elimination of a role during an instance. It is determined first by equipment, then by skill, and by taking specific classes (rdm). The “rigidity” of a system is when a dps has few gameplay options outside of their primary role as dps.

Let's take the shaman from WoW, since that was the class I knew best. But at one point (and apologies in advance if some skills aren't named, it's been a while), I could:

- CC with an AoE that regularly stunned enemies.
- Taunt with an elemental
- Help with dispel
- Off-heal with the right talent + certain skills
- Mass stun
- Morph into a frog
- An incredibly cheaty interrupt
- And of course, group heroism
- Heal myself
- Have cd def.

And many dps, heal, or tank classes had utilities as varied as this one. In ffxiv, the typical dps has a small heal, second wind, a raid buff, potentially a buff on another dps.... And that's it. Add to that the fact that there is little variability in DPS utilities (the classes that are exceptions, such as bards and dancers, have their utilities fused into their DPS rotation), and you get a system where playing DPS well = doing big damage. And almost nothing else. In WoW, being a good shaman certainly meant doing damage per second, but it also meant taking on a lot of control, off-healing, your defensive cooldowns, off-tanking, and buffing/debuffing. For me, these are classes that are not “rigid.” They have a role that goes beyond simple DPS. In FF, you have that... In instances beyond the extreme. Before, all the meager utilities you had were virtually non-existent.

"Am I treating people like idiots? " When you're explaining something as simple as "tank and healer have to contribute to general dps". And this " most people who've stayed on this game have realised that tanks don't actually need to be the ones who always directly pull because theirs no real aggro management.", which heavily implies that people who don't agree with that point have yet to discover this ultimate truth. And once again, he pretends to ignore that the discussion has long since shifted to “is it right or wrong.” Not whether it's necessary or not.

We can at least agree on one thing: this whole discussion wouldn't exist if tanks had a more interesting aggro system than “durr durr, I hit the mobs and they're on me immediately, and even if a DPS (like mch) uses drill (I don't know the name of the skill in English) and takes my aggro, it won't matter because I have my magic taunt.”

[Merrigan]

Using the lowest exponent of the content to make a point doesn't help your case.

That would be true. If the original post wasn't talking about roulette, perhaps

[YukioKobayashi]

Not sure how a DPS can slow down a dungeon by running ahead but sure bro...
Tanks can legit sneeze at enemies to maintain enmity. One AOE Combo is enough to go AFK getting a snack.
A tank has the same or more mobility than most DPS jobs in this game..
Monk is I think the only exception with 3 charges on a low CD but guess what ... RoE,Mantra,2ndWind,Bloodbath ect is enough to keep yourself alive for at least 15sec before needing help from a healer or tank.
If you cant keep up with a DPS running ahead than its most likely on you. Perhaps keybind Sprint and use your gapclosers.

[velkettin]

You're changing your basic message. And, I'm sorry, but you're also treating people like idiots. There are two of you here, in fact, who are assuming that anyone who opposes groups where everyone behaves in a YOLO manner is necessarily ignorant and incompetent.

I know that healers have to contribute to DPS. I've been playing this game for several years... Mostly as a healer. So there's no problem on that front. However, using the “big DPS” argument as proof that the roles are meant to be reversed is wrong: if, as a DPS, you do less damage than your healer or tank, there's a problem. A big one.

Similarly, there's no problem with the fact that you don't mind. Spoiler? I don't mind either when I'm tanking. But the subject of this thread is that some tanks don't like it. That it's not the “traditional” way of doing things in a very rigid trinity MMORPG like FFXIV. And in that regard, BlisteringFrost is right: it's simply not the usual way to behave, and from there, doing it without taking (literally) 30 seconds to post something in the chat is rude. Which makes your comment about party chat all the more curious: why not take the time to do it yourself, if you're a DPS who wants to pull? Especially since we can see when a player is new as soon as they enter the dungeon, but we can't predict that you'd rather go and find the mobs for your tank?

This game has many flaws. But damn it, if it has one good quality, it's the fact that the community remains relatively chill and respectful. And instead of appreciating that, we end up with a bunch of jokers who manage to defend by any means necessary that no, definitely, it's really much cooler not to accept to respect others at all because, you know, the tank having priority for pulling is not at all common in MMORPGs. Damn, that's sad.

i fully admit to being biased by my positive experience, but when i was that uncomfortable baby tank you mention in your other post and had someone pull for me, all it did was teach me that i was less squishy than i thought i was and give me the confidence to keep tanking. it felt encouraging, not rude.
frankly, the common ypyt mindset made me more afraid of tanking simply by making me think there was more to manage than there really is. i still thought i was tanking wrong somehow for a while after because it was so much less of A Deal than everyone made it out to be that i thought i must be missing something. i honestly think it'd be more helpful for "the community" to let new tanks know that they're more capable than they think they are-and that wipes are okay-than it is to insist on rigidly adhering to notions of "what roles do" based on other games that have little genuine mechanical basis in this one.
and despite my feelings, i do still usually just wait for a slow new tank.

[klu]

Yes, the novice hall specifies that “it is your role, at all times, to keep the aggro on you.”

Hilarious. The Novicd Hall *also* says "if your allies are bleeding, you shouldn't be DPSing."

And it also specifically trains you to engage the threats the tank ALREADY HAS.

Im getting burnt out with this thread, and the aspects of the community in it. You're going to win through sheer exhaustion with having to try to get you to acknowledge the few basic truths in this situation.

People who deliberately click their healer jobs, and queue up to try to DPS are wasting everyone's time. You're not THERE to DPS. I simply do not care if someone once made an offhanded statement about healers contributing to DPS and its supposed "requirement" in some situations in order to clear some arbitrary duty.

Notice that in my frustrated attempts to communicate, I never once said that a hypothetical healer WASNT ever healing, or not using their toolkit appropriately. So if you'll go ahead and stop trying to end run around my arguments by insinuating I'm not using my own cooldowns, we can try, once again to get to the meat of this.

When the DPS specifically bypass the group that has been engaged in order to force the group to take more mobs, theyre being selfish and stupid. It doesn't matter who pulled it. Seeing the lalafell bard toddle off to go grab ADDITIONAL mobs instead of dealing with the fucking wespes I have aggro on RIGHT NOW is NOT helping the group advance.

Having the healer unable to keep me alive because my health took 75% drop once that little shite returns with half the instance trailing him is unacceptable, and I should absolutely expect that healer to stop doing damage and funnel heals into me until this mess gets cleaned up.

As mentioned before, no one should need to be a sweating Uber player to handle non-guild combat. Not only should I NOT be blowing my invulns on cooldown so a healer can pop off a few more rocks, even supposing I would agree to it, its probably still on cooldown from the LAST time this stunt got pulled.

Let me ask you this then, my stalwart adversaries: If youre not in there to handle the role you signed up for, why should I alone be the guy? I dont care if it takes me "oNe BuTtOn To AoE", why SHOULD I?

You've been clear that your desired experience trumps my own, and since we aren't handling it like adults in situ, what earthly power would convince me to do my job, when yours entails anything you want it to, and nothing you dont?

Why is there so much pushback on the trinity and the tank pulls, and yet we all implicitly know that aside from maybe two examples, the tank should NEVER be the one blowing the LB?

Maybe... the rules ARE kinda understood, and you want to hold the group hostage to your whims?

[BokoToloko]

snip

That makes absolutely no sense, as most of the utility there is tied to class and not to roles. You're expected to do interrupts, CC, sap or dispel as long as your class has the utility REGARDLESS of the role. That doesn't stop healers from having to keep their group alive, tanks from having to keep the aggro on them and DPS from pumping numbers. And even on the cases where their utilities mimicks other roles, it really isn't any different from here. Druids can Bres? Yes. So can RDM and SMN. Providing healing as a DPS or Tank? Curing Waltz, Earth's Reply, Shake it Off, and several others. Earth elemental? Not much different from when Titan Egi could tank. Or from taking some autoattacks as a DPS either. Mitigations? Every DPS has raidwide mitigation cooldown and some have a personal. And peoiple ARE expected to use them in serious content and SHOULD do the same on lower content. And yet, this has nothing to do with the fact that you can still pull for the tank and the healers can DPS (as a matter of fact, healers have to DPS when there is no immediate need for heals in WoW too) because the tank can STILL survive for a very extended period without healing where as healers and tanks still don't need to forgo DPS in order to do fulfill roles and are, instead, expected to DPS to the best of their abilities too. But still. you still expect others to acquiesce to their pace for reasons that ignore the points already explained time and again and boild down to "it's just rude".

And if there is a significant difference to point out about here and WoW is that people here think it's okay for a tank to behave like they're entitled to have everyone else go their pace where as in WoW, any similar person gets no such concessions. And that class and dungeon design are far more extensive and better designed overall, but that bears little meaning in the current discussion.

[velkettin]

Hilarious. The Novicd Hall *also* says "if your allies are bleeding, you shouldn't be DPSing."

And it also specifically trains you to engage the threats the tank ALREADY HAS.

if you had done hall of the novice recently you would also know that dps are taught to attack things that the tank isn't currently attacking. and i'm not even going to pretend like that means "so you do need to pull ahead of tank because game says so," i think it's just teaching you how to not fail solo duties, because otherwise it'd teach the player to take the mobs to the tank.

as for the rest of your post.... no offense but it genuinely sounds like you just don't enjoy tanking..? tanks barely even have anything to do if you just sit there on one or two little packs.

[BokoToloko]

Let me ask you this then, my stalwart adversaries: If youre not in there to handle the role you signed up for, why should I alone be the guy? I dont care if it takes me "oNe BuTtOn To AoE", why SHOULD I?

You've been clear that your desired experience trumps my own, and since we aren't handling it like adults in situ, what earthly power would convince me to do my job, when yours entails anything you want it to, and nothing you dont

There is a very simple answer to that: because I AM doing my role. When I DPS, I make sure to burn down the mobs regardless if I pulled or not. When I heal, I make sure my party lives while also DPSing too and, past a certain level, I won't even need a single GCD to keep them alive because my oGCDs are more than enough (meaning all my GCDs are used to DPS and the party still stays alive), not to mention I still heal when I DPS as Sage. And when I tank, I draw the aggr REGARDLESS of who pulls and I still survive because I KNOW how cycle my cooldowns in order to make my healer's job easier PRECISELY so they need to waste less globals healing and more globals poppiing off. And I use invulns on W2W because they're the only scenarios where they're even worth using in a dungeon and because I know to use my FULL toolkit to do my job and help my peers.

Because, contrary to you, I've queued enough Duty Finders in ALL three roles to know the limits of what a party can or cannot do. And I don't throw a fit because a DPS or healer gets ahead of me or because a White Mage spams Holy. At worst, I use Bloodwhetting and stop caring. At best I'll appreciate when my healers acknowledge how much I can sustain myself rather than panicking anytime I get below half HP because I'm about to use bloodwhetting to heal back to full. Any tank that does the mega pull at Mt.Gulg and properly uses their mitigations? Wish I could kiss them. Because they actually coordinate with me to play to the best of both our abilities.

I don't get exhaustion dealing with people ignorantly throwing a hissy fit like you. You know why? Because if someone gets the funny idea of pulling a YPYT, it will be their only chance and then it's a close meeting with my boot.

[Rithy255]

Snip

I'm sorry but what duties are you having where healers can't keep you up? do you realise healers have skills that Heal off the global cooldown (similar to how tank cooldowns work you dont waste damage doing them) The healing Spells are in general Emergency only as most healers can manage 100% uptime even on wall to wall pulls. Healers job is to heal AND do damage, tanks jobs is to do damage and use cooldowns that can mitigate and heal, just because the role is named something doesn't mean your job can't and shouldn't extend outside of that.

You don't have to be some kind of uber player to be able to wall to wall and use your cooldowns, All you have to know is how to cycle them correctly such as using 1-2 mitigations at a time (such as Sheltron + Rampart > Arms length + Reprisal > Sentinel/Guardian > Sheltron ect.) You have so many defensive cooldowns and value if you know how to use them healers really don't need to put any focus on tanks in AOE situations

I'm confused which duties healers are unable to keep you alive in if you pull more then one mob group at a time...? maybe like stone vigil and some early ARR content, but anything outside of that its very formulaic and predictable in damage output and by then healers will have some off global cooldown healing (or even stuns on their aoe like holy).

If someone isn't playing their role "correctly" in your eyes (I don't really know how other then the healer absolutely not healing you, again pulling isn't just for tanks only) the response isn't to act immature and not do your AOE the response is to just get on with it and make the best out of a bad situation.

I may not agree with healers who only spam cure 1 and slow down the duty on purpose my response isn't to turn off tank stance and rage, I get on with it even if its something I rather not deal with because handling stuff like a "adult" means sometimes having to deal with players who don't play the way you want. The main way people play this game IS wall to wall, there can be exceptions but the norm is to pull, until the game is designed in a way that DPS players shouldn't actively pull or it will cause your team to wipe then its the DPS job as much as the tank and healers to pull.

[klu]

Because, contrary to you,

You know nothing about me, aside from what I've typed here. Take your inference and stick it, you dont know what roles I play.

And i dont know what roles YOU play.

And you know what I *DO* know about you?

Buckle up, sunshine.

I know I like your screen name here.
I know we've both had bad and good runs, good and bad groups, and we BOTH prefer it when things run smoother than the prom queens unmentionables.

And for the record, I do use my invulns on predictably big pulls.