League levels of toxic behavour in game.

[Merrigan]

that's great for people who play those games. i'm not playing those, i'm playing ffxiv, a game in which who pulled first barely matters as long as your party isn't filled with people actively eating crayons. and if you're 30 entire yards behind a dps you are doing something wrong lmfao

You mean the same game where the majority of players do indeed respect the trinity system, where scarce utilities mean that classes are very limited in their roles (unlike WoW, for example), and where the rigidity of grouping means that each role is present via the queue system?

[Rithy255]

Snip.

High dps is reversed for the group, everyone should be contributing damage when they actively can, it's a team game, Tanks and healers AOE damage is really good. Its fine if a healer is still easing into healing but ideally by like level 70 you should know how to heal and do damage, just pressing cure 1 all dungeon is purposely slowing people down, I can provoke the boss and not do a proper rotation on tank and "be doing my job" but that would be wasting time for the group.

I don't play DPS much nor do I often pull ahead, I'm a tank main myself, sorry I don't think it's a big deal that DPS pull ahead? if it is a problem with a new tank theirs this feature called party chat... maybe use that to communicate your new. There are cases where pulling as a dps can be actively a bad thing but we should also encourage tanks by the time they are hitting the later levels to actually know how to pull and not slow down the group. If your at level 100 and scared of wall to wall you are actively slowing everyone down, trust dungeons do exist if people want to take dungeons at a slow pace.

It's bad etiquette. All I'm seeing from a certain generic looking aaaahhhh xaela is bad etiquette. And complete disregard for just having basic decency.

This isn't WOW this is FF14 sorry tanking and healing works different in this game, don't use other games as a example for why it should or shouldn't be bad in ff14.

Healers also aren't taught to prioritise to mostly heal, the game has auto heal skills built on tank and healing ogcds, they can do both it's how the role functions.

Also thank you for making personal attacks on the race I play, sure it makes you feel real cool, that's some pretty bad etiquette you have there. Though again I don't play dps much and I don't pull ahead of my tanks most of the time unless i queue with them. I just don't think people should jump to the other extreme turn off their stance if a dps pulls ahead, it is what it is as a tank you should be trying to actively prevent your team from taking too much damage even if they aren't playing how you want them to play.

[velkettin]

You mean the same game where the majority of players do indeed respect the trinity system, where scarce utilities mean that classes are very limited in their roles (unlike WoW, for example), and where the rigidity of grouping means that each role is present via the queue system?

i mean the game where you hit one (1) button to regain aggro.

[BokoToloko]

You mean the same game where the majority of players do indeed respect the trinity system, where scarce utilities mean that classes are very limited in their roles (unlike WoW, for example), and where the rigidity of grouping means that each role is present via the queue system?

"Respect the trinity system" in this case doesn't include anything about "pulling". Not even Hall of Novice doesn't say the tank role is to lead or to pull but to take the attention of the enemies from your DPS and healer to yourself. Regardless of who pulls first. That's the role of the tank.

Also, we're talking about the same game where tanks can solo bosses, there has already been groups clearing dungeons EASILY without healers and the healer role has been relegated to laughingstock. THAT's the game we're talking abou, too.

And, for the limitations in the classes compared to WoW, you forget to mention the dungeons themselves are several orders more limited than WoW too. And STILL, the distinction between roles is even muddier here because tanks and even some DPS can have enough self-sustain to forgo healers, healers get so much healing downtime that they will end up spending most of the time DPSing and DPS can provide external mitigation through tanking the initial attacks and debuffing the mobs they pull with Arm's Lenght, something that doesn't happen in WoW except for multi-role classes like Paladin, Druid or Monk, who have baseline abilities that allow them to perform actions pertaining roles different to their spec's (monks can taunt as healer or dps, do some small heals as tank or dps and dps is already deeply ingrained into healer and tank kits too, as an example)

[Merrigan]

High dps is reversed for the group, everyone should be contributing damage when they actively can, it's a team game, Tanks and healers AOE damage is really good. Its fine if a healer is still easing into healing but ideally by like level 70 you should know how to heal and do damage, just pressing cure 1 all dungeon is purposely slowing people down, I can provoke the boss and not do a proper rotation on tank and "be doing my job" but that would be wasting time for the group.

I don't play DPS much nor do I often pull ahead, I'm a tank main myself, sorry I don't think it's a big deal that DPS pull ahead? if it is a problem with a new tank theirs this feature called party chat... maybe use that to communicate your new. There are cases where pulling as a dps can be actively a bad thing but we should also encourage tanks by the time they are hitting the later levels to actually know how to pull and not slow down the group. If your at level 100 and scared of wall to wall you are actively slowing everyone down, trust dungeons do exist if people want to take dungeons at a slow pace.

You're changing your basic message. And, I'm sorry, but you're also treating people like idiots. There are two of you here, in fact, who are assuming that anyone who opposes groups where everyone behaves in a YOLO manner is necessarily ignorant and incompetent.

I know that healers have to contribute to DPS. I've been playing this game for several years... Mostly as a healer. So there's no problem on that front. However, using the “big DPS” argument as proof that the roles are meant to be reversed is wrong: if, as a DPS, you do less damage than your healer or tank, there's a problem. A big one.

Similarly, there's no problem with the fact that you don't mind. Spoiler? I don't mind either when I'm tanking. But the subject of this thread is that some tanks don't like it. That it's not the “traditional” way of doing things in a very rigid trinity MMORPG like FFXIV. And in that regard, BlisteringFrost is right: it's simply not the usual way to behave, and from there, doing it without taking (literally) 30 seconds to post something in the chat is rude. Which makes your comment about party chat all the more curious: why not take the time to do it yourself, if you're a DPS who wants to pull? Especially since we can see when a player is new as soon as they enter the dungeon, but we can't predict that you'd rather go and find the mobs for your tank?

This game has many flaws. But damn it, if it has one good quality, it's the fact that the community remains relatively chill and respectful. And instead of appreciating that, we end up with a bunch of jokers who manage to defend by any means necessary that no, definitely, it's really much cooler not to accept to respect others at all because, you know, the tank having priority for pulling is not at all common in MMORPGs. Damn, that's sad.

[Merrigan]

Not even Hall of Novice doesn't say the tank role is to lead or to pull but to take the attention of the enemies from your DPS and healer to yourself

Yes, the novice hall specifies that “it is your role, at all times, to keep the aggro on you.”

Also, we're talking about the same game where tanks can solo bosses, there has already been groups clearing dungeons EASILY without healers and the healer role has been relegated to laughingstock. THAT's the game we're talking abou, too.

And stop with the argument about clearing dungeons without healing. I've done it before, but most players aren't really capable of doing it when playing mostly roulette.

something that doesn't happen in WoW except for multi-role classes like Paladin, Druid or Monk, who have baseline abilities that allow them to perform actions pertaining roles different to their spec's

As for that, it's simply not true. I remember the leveling dungeons in WoW, which are equivalent to roulettes in FF. The tank's pull was completely ignored because between group stuns, classes with super-effective off-tanks, defensive CDs that each class has, and summons that many DPS can use to taunt, it was a game where you could really do without the tank. In fact, there was a whole period where a friend and I had fun doing dungeons together. DPS-heal, or even DPS-DPS (with a druid just in case), the tank wasn't really useful. You mention arm's length, which is pretty much the only defensive tool available to most classes in FF. In WoW, even many pure DPS classes have several defensive tools at their disposal. Special mention goes to the rogue.

In FFXIV, classes are remarkably confined to their roles. It's a very (too?) rigid game in that regard.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Am I treating people like idiots? My intention if anything I was more confused how people were running into the issues and blaming DPS and Healers when tank has the most agency. No ones a idiot for having a opinion even if I disagree with it.

With healer and tank damage It's fairly easy to charge up blood lillies on white mage and do massive AOE burst damage, or Paladins burst to output insane amount of damage, a Healer + Tank should be contributing at least as much as one dps if not more Tanks and healers together should both make up 40% while two dps should be making up 60%, which in AOE can be even more then that. Similarly Tanks should be contributing their self healing, group healing, ground mit and self mitigation their job is to tank, do damage and help their healers out where they can.

Well the tanks that don't like it need to get over the fact that some DPS will play in a way that doesn't work for them, just like I get annoyed when my white mage is spamming cure 1, I just deal with it and move on with my life. It's a team based game, sometimes the team isn't going to be perfectly aligned, but theirs a good reason why most people default wall to wall, it's because its hilariously easy to do so, If some DPS is pulling in one of those early ARR dungeons then maybe you would have a point, but a Tank should learn at some point on how to wall to wall instead of slowing everyone down. I'm also not making out like the DPS player pulling ahead is just some poor saint, they likely aren't really paying much attention because 99% of the time people are gonna wall to wall.

Also how is FF14's trinity system rigid? It's so broken and unrigid you don't need healers or even tanks in some ultimate fights, if anything FF14's trinity system just makes no sense.

The community isn't as chill as you make it out to be funnily enough and FF14 unlike most other MMO's tank doesn't have to Pull, it doesn't matter what other mmo's do this isn't the catch 22 you think it is, most people who've stayed on this game have realised that tanks don't actually need to be the ones who always directly pull because theirs no real aggro management.

[BokoToloko]

snip.

Treating something as inocuous as pulling ahread of the tank (which, to emphasize, IS inocuous) as everyone behaving in a YOLO manner while utterly dismissing the reasoning behind several of these actions and why it works is showcase a unwillingness to compromise, all for the sake of an imaginary rule of conduct (meaning you CAN'T ban people for pulling ahead of the DPS) that has no other basis that it's "just rude because it just is". That behavior does not only shows ignorance but also betrays an unwillingness to learn, which is what makes an incompetent person.

You mistake being relatively chill and respectful (something I'm doubtful about the more I know the community. It's just as chill/toxic as any other community: people simply take workarounds about the moderation) with being passively condesecendent and playing nannies. No one cares if you die to mechanics or commit mistakes, we all do. But what people will be less tolerant is that you refuse to do better and you try to get things your way without a sound reasoning that justifies it, specially when those with experience KNOW the game doesn't work a certain way. Just like in any other game, you're expected to learn and try to help your party to the best of your ability because that's part and parcel of a teamgame, not respecting arbitrary lines drawn on the sand..

If someone doesn't like it, I can and will explain them why it doesn't matter in a clear and concise way. If a tank struggles to wall to wall and survive, I will point out the pain points and help them learn how to handle mitigations in order to survive large pulls. Because it's far more condescending and disrepectful toward the inexperienced to deny them the chance to improve and develop by offering actual help and pushing them to improve (specially because the cost of wiping is null, meaning it's value is outweighted by having the tank learn from the mistakes) because you perceive is far "chiller" to lower the standards to a point that doesn't really matches what a competent run looks like. That's way more a case of treating players like idiots than what I or Rithy do.

[Rithy255]

If someone doesn't like it, I can and will explain them why it doesn't matter in a clear and concise way. If a tank struggles to wall to wall and survive, I will point out the pain points and help them learn how to handle mitigations in order to survive large pulls. Because it's far more condescending and disrepectful toward the inexperienced to deny them the chance to improve and develop by offering actual help and pushing them to improve (specially because the cost of wiping is null, meaning it's value is outweighted by having the tank learn from the mistakes) because you perceive is far "chiller" to lower the standards to a point that doesn't really matches what a competent run looks like. That's way more a case of treating players like idiots than what I or Rithy do.

Just to add I don't think i've ever tried to treat people like idiots in a dungeon, I've a few times explained and gave some advice I genuinely don't run into these nightmare dungeon scenarios a lot. I do understand despite ff14 being a very easy game for me, that theirs still stuff to learn ff14 was my first MMO I started early/mid shadowbringers and I didn't know how to pull until like stormblood through my first playthough and I feel very bad in fact for that I slowed people down I wished people told me sooner quite honestly. In being afraid of offering help or advice it actually can cause people to not understand some basic things.

I think one time I got a snarky comment how I didn't know what i was talking about because I said arms length helps in AOE situations to slow down auto attacks, there has been situations where a group is struggling but these have been so rare to me especially in recent times.

[BokoToloko]

Yes, the novice hall specifies that “it is your role, at all times, to keep the aggro on you.”

And that means the AGGRO is their responsibility, not the first blood on any enemy. Not that they need to pull ahead of everyone or that other player need to patiently wait for tanks to pull.

And stop with the argument about clearing dungeons without healing. I've done it before, but most players aren't really capable of doing it when playing mostly roulette.

And I've done it before and we've been perfectly capable without being Omnilegends. Take from that what you will

As for that, it's simply not true. I remember the leveling dungeons in WoW, which are equivalent to roulettes in FF. The tank's pull was completely ignored because between group stuns, classes with super-effective off-tanks, defensive CDs that each class has, and summons that many DPS can use to taunt, it was a game where you could really do without the tank. In fact, there was a whole period where a friend and I had fun doing dungeons together. DPS-heal, or even DPS-DPS (with a druid just in case), the tank wasn't really useful. You mention arm's length, which is pretty much the only defensive tool available to most classes in FF. In WoW, even many pure DPS classes have several defensive tools at their disposal. Special mention goes to the rogue.

In FFXIV, classes are remarkably confined to their roles. It's a very (too?) rigid game in that regard

People ignoring tanks in LFG Dungeons doesn't stem from a blurry distinction between roles. It comes from the fact that Normal and Heroic are absolutely piss easy, even more than here. You can stomp them any way you like. And that's not to mention the absurdly juiced Fury Warriors twinks that clear whole TW dungeons by themselves due to how the synching works there. You only need other 4 players only for the queue pop. If the distinctions between roles were ACTUALLY blurry, we would have M+ with any compositions that is not 1/1/3. What to take a guess what I'll see if I open Raider.io? Using the lowest exponent of the content to make a point doesn't help your case.