League levels of toxic behavour in game.

[Rithy255]

As a Tank I'm not using my mitigations or self/target healing thats the other peoples roles I only do my aoe once or twice and provoke. If dps uses second wind as a healer I might as well rescue them off the map that's MY JOB. If I'm DPS and I see my Healer or tank doing damage? well guess I'm not needed as a DPS I'm just going to stand their emoting! if these healers and tanks dare do my JOB. (Here's what yall sound like when saying you pull you tank).

Ofc if ur a DPS is pulling mobs and running away from the tank with aggro instead of going to the tank once you've reached the pull then yeah don't pull lol, but tanks really need to understand that pulling isn't exclusive to them just as healing isn't exclusive to healers or doing big damage isn't exclusive to dps

[klu]

As a Tank I'm not using my mitigations or self/target healing thats the other peoples roles I only do my aoe once or twice and provoke. If dps uses second wind as a healer I might as well rescue them off the map that's MY JOB. If I'm DPS and I see my Healer or tank doing damage? well guess I'm not needed as a DPS I'm just going to stand their emoting! if these healers and tanks dare do my JOB. (Here's what yall sound like when saying you pull you tank).

Ofc if ur a DPS is pulling mobs and running away from the tank with aggro instead of going to the tank once you've reached the pull then yeah don't pull lol, but tanks really need to understand that pulling isn't exclusive to them just as healing isn't exclusive to healers or doing big damage isn't exclusive to dps

Your point is *always* knee-capped when you throw "Ofc if ur". Always.

And as usual, you're side-stepping the point. Tanks aren't mad that DPS are pulling. That's surface level mishandling.

Tanks are mad that DPS are pulling, healers are DPSing, and Tanks are *dying*. As is the group, usually.

If this was perfect world, sure. Pull mobs to me. In perfect world, I can trust that you aren't fucking over the entire group with your stunts.

I don't trust you. And you will be joining me me in the repair shop after we are all done wiping.

[Rithy255]

Your point is *always* knee-capped when you throw "Ofc if ur". Always.

And as usual, you're side-stepping the point. Tanks aren't mad that DPS are pulling. That's surface level mishandling.

Tanks are mad that DPS are pulling, healers are DPSing, and Tanks are *dying*. As is the group, usually.

If this was perfect world, sure. Pull mobs to me. In perfect world, I can trust that you aren't fucking over the entire group with your stunts.

I don't trust you. And you will be joining me me in the repair shop after we are all done wiping.

My point isn't knee-capped when I say "ofc if ur" because their can be exceptions like I've pointed out theirs ways to pull on dps that are fine and ways to pull on dps that is griefing, it's really not that hard to understand. The thing is DPS can be annoying when pulling that doesn't mean it's automatically always bad, not everything has to be either a do or a don't.

If your saying that Tanks are mad that dps are pulling and healers aren't healing, then guess what tanks can do... they can heal and shield dps... woah! it's almost like tanks have utility skills in situations where a DPS might be pulling more then they should and Healers don't really care about healing. Though most of the time healers do actually tend to do their job.

Fact is your assuming the worst from your team and every player, the "perfect world" is the majority of the time rarely do I see a dps pull ahead then wipe us, at worst they cause a mild inconvience where i have to provoke and grab aggro on a few enemies which is annoying but it is what it is, if your in a situation where DPS are consistently in front of you and pulling to the extent that it's causing wipes I think that's more of a issue on the tanks part for being too slow, maybe like use sprint and your gap closer... they exist for a reason.

If you don't trust players to the extent you turn tank stance off in protest, maybe just get good instead of making it everyone else's issue.

[BokoToloko]

Your point is *always* knee-capped when you throw "Ofc if ur". Always.

And as usual, you're side-stepping the point. Tanks aren't mad that DPS are pulling. That's surface level mishandling.

Tanks are mad that DPS are pulling, healers are DPSing, and Tanks are *dying*. As is the group, usually.

If this was perfect world, sure. Pull mobs to me. In perfect world, I can trust that you aren't fucking over the entire group with your stunts.

I don't trust you. And you will be joining me me in the repair shop after we are all done wiping.

You give away your lack of knowledge on how the game works with this.

Healers ARE expected to DPS. They get enough healing tools outside the global cooldown that they can be casting their main damaging spell and keep the tank alive in between GCDs even at lower levels. And that's not to mention the amount of passive healing most healing jobs can dole out while DPSing, like SGE and Kardia, SCH and their fairies and WHM with Holy keeping the whole pack stunned for about 7 seconds total, which is almost as long as a tank invulnerability.

Not only that, there has been enough successful attempts at clearing all kinds of content without healers that it's been long a point of discontent among the healers to see their role be more and more inconsequential as expansions are added. With proper planning of the mitigations, tanks last for a long time and can even solo the bosses. And their survivability get stronger and stronger the higher the level. Hell, there was even a group that managed to clear an Ultimate raid with only tanks.

The only tanks that get mad at DPS pulling ahead and healers DPS'ing are incompetent ones. Runs where DPS pulling and healer DPSing doesn't result in a wipe do not only exist in a perfect world. They exist in any run where the party members are competent enough to play their classes. And I, for one, am past holding myself back in the expectation that my other three party members are below competent that they can't manage to do wall-to-wall, which even Trusts can manage. Specially when I know the vast majority of my queues, people are competent enough for me to not need bothering to offer advice.

[klu]

I literally, *literally* said that in a perfect world, yes. DPS would pull, and the healer could DPS.

I said, once again, that these are not the problems.

The group DYING because those two groups were too busy doing whatever they wanted, and not adhering to THEIR ROLES.

Healing the group, and killing the TANKS targets.

I do not understand why you folks are dodging this thesis. I am running out of ways to articulate it.

If DPS/HEALS were prioritizing their jobs, instead of their ancillary optional "fun" duties, things would be gravy.

They are not. Too many times the group wipes because the tank died. Why did the tank die? Because his HP got to zero.

Why did his HP hit zero? Because there were too MANY mobs, and not enough HEALS.

[Merrigan]

As a Tank [...].

Uh? High DPS is definitely reserved for DPS (or there's a big problem), and healing is for healers. I'd like to see you tank a group as DPS with your self-heal, that would be funny.

No, and at some point we have to admit that maybe that's not the issue. The problem with group content is that everyone has to get something out of it. If your tank wants to pull, let him pull: the vast majority of dungeon groups go fast, do w2w, it's not going to kill you to keep a more moderate pace that makes you lose five minutes at most. I don't know when it became cool on this forum to claim that tanks who don't want others to pull for them are the ones causing trouble. It's starting to get tiresome: the very principle of group content is that there has to be compromise. Here, if your tank is doing w2w, go at a reasonable pace, you can let them pull without it changing much for you.

If it's totally impossible for you to adapt a little to a different pace, then you need to play in a guild. That's literally what they were designed for: to be grouped with people who have similar play styles. But now we find ourselves in the ridiculous situation where people don't want anything to do with a guild, but still demand that everyone around them adapt to their little whims. We're talking about an MMORPG built around a trinity system. That's the basis of everything, as you know, and it's what's respected in most in-game runs. If there's a disagreement, you need to make sure everyone's okay with it. And, worst case scenario, here's a tip: the chat bar exists. It's a wonderful tool that allows you to confirm whether the tank is comfortable, whether the healer allows you to greed however you want, and other minor discrepancies in the overall system.

The only tanks that get mad at DPS pulling ahead and healers DPS'ing are incompetent ones.

No. That argument came out of nowhere, pure fabrication that suits you because it would magically allow you to be right. As a healer, it annoys me quite frequently—not because of a lack of skill. On the contrary, it gives me something to do rather than painstakingly spamming my DPS spells. But when I see a DPS pulling, often clumsily, with a tank who is clearly uncomfortable with the situation, I'm sorry, but I just think you're being very rude to the people around you.


In short : people aren't your personnal bots. Act accordingly.

[BlisteringFrost]

Pulling for your tanks is bad etiquette. Nobody does it in WoW unless the tanks specifically ask for it so they can focus their attention on the pack they already have while the next one comes running in.
Nobody kills trash in dungeons and raids if it isn't their job in Destiny 2. Some of these mods trigger mechanics. Some just spawn in sectioned off spaces of the encounter arenas. It is bad etiquette to not stay in your lane if you're in a Fireteam (a party).
Nobody in League of Legends goes to someone elses lane during CS to kill minions, unless it's either allowed, or the person is maintaining a freeze on a lane while the laner is missing at that moment. It's just bad etiquette.
Most players in FF14 will not pull for the tanks, and healers are generally taught to prioritize keeping everybody healthy over doing damage. Some dungeon mobs do VERY threatening damage that a tank can't do anything about if the DPS is 30 yards ahead pulling more stuff before the last pack even died. The tank might possibly even not be very well geared. But pulling for them assumes you know better anyway. The tanks job is to control the dungeon pace. Not the DPS. And not the healers.

It's bad etiquette. All I'm seeing from a certain generic looking aaaahhhh xaela is bad etiquette. And complete disregard for just having basic decency.

[BokoToloko]

I literally, *literally* said that in a perfect world, yes. DPS would pull, and the healer could DPS.

I said, once again, that these are not the problems.

The group DYING because those two groups were too busy doing whatever they wanted, and not adhering to THEIR ROLES.

Healing the group, and killing the TANKS targets.

I do not understand why you folks are dodging this thesis. I am running out of ways to articulate it.

If DPS/HEALS were prioritizing their jobs, instead of their ancillary optional "fun" duties, things would be gravy.

They are not. Too many times the group wipes because the tank died. Why did the tank die? Because his HP got to zero.

Why did his HP hit zero? Because there were too MANY mobs, and not enough HEALS.

You're the one who's not understanding the fact that a DPS can pull ahead and still do his role of DPSing the tanks target (mostly because they are expected to also pick up the mobs the DPS pull) and a healer can DPS while still doing their role (as I explained above). As you are not understanding the fact that DPSing is also part of the healers's role. The faster the mob die, the less damage the tank take. It's quite simple.

If you can't survive without your healer spamming Adlo/Cure2/Bene2/E.Prog, it means you're taking too much damage and, if you're taking too much damage with a double pull, that just means you're either very horribly geared not bothering using the tools that enable a tank surviving the aggroed NPCs: your mitigations, which come free of cost and will make your job quite easier. And, that point, it is YOUR fault for half assing your performance, not their healers' for expecting you to pull your own weight.

I have yet to see any wipe because a DPS pulled the mobs for the tank or a healer DPS'd. And they're not perfect runs because people constantly do mistakes like misaligning CDs or overhealing yet neither bothers me particularilty because, at the very least, the healer knows to use their AoE and the DPS still know their basic rotations and using their cooldowns.

Last, but not least, it's ironic you complain about the lack of heals as a PLD, a class that only comes second in self-healing to the Warrior and can even heal allies in a pinch. By level 90, both warriors and paladins can solo bosses and you're complaining about dying because you don't get healed.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Because your thesis assume that healers aren't able to both prioritise healing/mitigation/stuns and damage at the sametime, ontop of tanks being super strong and kitted with a bunch of their own heals and mass amounts of mitigation it makes ZERO sense.

To me it doesn't sound like you have ever played a healer nor do you use mitigation/sustain/target abilities effectively on tank, you seem to put 90% of the responsibility of keeping you up on the healer, when it's more a 50/50, but even then tanks can carry 100% of that responsibility if they are decent.

Jobs in this game don't need to strictly adhere to their roles, theirs a big overlap between tanking and healing even DPS also have some effective tools for that, pulling isn't some exclusive tank role action, your job as TANK is to make sure the aggro is on you it's as simple as that, you want to be taking the majority of hits, DPS will be fine taking a few stray hits from mobs that have aggro briefly on them.

Do you genuinely run into situations where people wipe because the DPS run ahead and the healer refuses to use one of their 50 OGCD heals? Are tanks role play walking in every dungeon or something because I don't get how a tank can be so far behind a dps that it would cause a wipe, the problem is what you say on paper would make sense for some MMO's where grabbing aggro could be more difficult and healers are required to heal heal 99% of the time, but ff14 dungeons don't require tanks to pull, as long as they get aggro which with stance is like 1 or 2 hits at most...

More then anything I'm just confused... to me your making it sound like something that happens quite often where we just randomly wipe because a dps pulls and forgets to heal, I think in a case where you do actually wipe to that everyone is to blame, the tank for being too slow and not getting aggro or even providing emergency mit/heal, the Healer for not healing and the DPS for apparently sprinting super fast to the point where tanks with gap closers can't even catch up??? at that point everyone is to blame for incompetence.

I'm a tank main, I've seen many players play in very odd ways... But as a tank I know I can always stabilize pretty much any bad situation, Tanks have the most agency in the group by far, I just am confused how this happens to anyone in the first place? like yeah dps can be annoying pull and run around, but worse comes to worse you can get aggro back by provoking and using ranged attacks. I am just not sure we are playing the same game even? like why are the tanks protesting? we have the most ways to prevent wipes, if you advocate for you pull you tank, maybe just like get better at tank? instead of blaming everyone else.

[velkettin]

Pulling for your tanks is bad etiquette. Nobody does it in WoW unless the tanks specifically ask for it so they can focus their attention on the pack they already have while the next one comes running in.
Nobody kills trash in dungeons and raids if it isn't their job in Destiny 2. Some of these mods trigger mechanics. Some just spawn in sectioned off spaces of the encounter arenas. It is bad etiquette to not stay in your lane if you're in a Fireteam (a party).
Nobody in League of Legends goes to someone elses lane during CS to kill minions, unless it's either allowed, or the person is maintaining a freeze on a lane while the laner is missing at that moment. It's just bad etiquette.
Most players in FF14 will not pull for the tanks, and healers are generally taught to prioritize keeping everybody healthy over doing damage. Some dungeon mobs do VERY threatening damage that a tank can't do anything about if the DPS is 30 yards ahead pulling more stuff before the last pack even died. The tank might possibly even not be very well geared. But pulling for them assumes you know better anyway. The tanks job is to control the dungeon pace. Not the DPS. And not the healers.

It's bad etiquette. All I'm seeing from a certain generic looking aaaahhhh xaela is bad etiquette. And complete disregard for just having basic decency.

that's great for people who play those games. i'm not playing those, i'm playing ffxiv, a game in which who pulled first barely matters as long as your party isn't filled with people actively eating crayons. and if you're 30 entire yards behind a dps you are doing something wrong lmfao