Revelations from Patch 7.3: The Promise of Tomorrow

[eloralora]

I feel that for me at least I want to know if certain personality traits are semi etched into the soul or not. Do I want the devs to feel as though they need to keep on rejoining the WoL? No. I also don't want to have that happen even if that seems to be the most likely at this point situation to end up in. It's just I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't expect to run into more Azem stuff. That gun has already been fired.

Personally, I have no issue with Azem shards who are their own people (like Ardbert). I just can't comprehend why so many people want the Warrior of Light to become fully rejoined, or to go back in time and become Azem as if they were one and the same all along (though it doesn't really matter, because I'm 99% certain these things are not going to happen lol).

If we're actually going to explore more about Azem themselves (beyond acknowledging whether or not they made something), the reason I'm hesitant is because I know the writers will leave aspects of Azem's background and personality vague enough to avoid interfering with headcanons players may have. I imagine there are even a few Greek deity names that are totally off-limits as true names for any remaining Ascians, specifically because so many players have selected those names for their headcanon Azem. This is just my opinion, but the way the story treats Azem is a bit at odds with some of the its key themes, like the fact that you are you because of the path you walk; not because of your soul. My WoL isn't Azem anymore than she's Ardbert; so my personal preference would be for Azem to be treated the same, although I understand why people like the idea of imagining their own version.

[Shookbeast]

It all honestly feels like a power fantasy for the sake of power fantasy.

What's the narrative purpose of rejoining with Azem's other shards?

What makes it interesting, and how does it do so without diluting Ardbert's sacrifice?

Why would the WOL even want to abandon all of their friends to take on the role of someone who, for all we've been told up until now, was their own separate person?

And if we went back to become Azem, wouldn't that just spit in the face of Shadowbringer and Endwalker's narratives that reincarnations are their own people?

The version of this theory I feel is most likely, doesn’t end with us becoming Azem, but would be us finding out there is no Azem - because we go back in time and do all the stuff attributed to Azem (and then some).

So there is no great Ascian forebear named Azem.

There is no wizard. We’re the person behind the curtain.

“Azem” is just us, and our friends. And to me that’s perfectly in theme with the story. It’s us, just doing our best, against insurmountable odds. We’re a little weird. We’re a little noble. We make friends wherever we go. We may even love grapes.

To bring it back to Calyx, I get the vibe he’s being both bullied and intimidated by the Winterers. If he’s a parallel to our WOL (Azem shard or not) - I’d wonder if his failing is trying to do everything alone, where as we build community.

[Dikatis]

The version of this theory I feel is most likely, doesn’t end with us becoming Azem, but would be us finding out there is no Azem - because we go back in time and do all the stuff attributed to Azem (and then some).

So there is no great Ascian forebear named Azem.

There is no wizard. We’re the person behind the curtain.

“Azem” is just us, and our friends. And to me that’s perfectly in theme with the story. It’s us, just doing our best, against insurmountable odds. We’re a little weird. We’re a little noble. We make friends wherever we go. We may even love grapes.

To bring it back to Calyx, I get the vibe he’s being both bullied and intimidated by the Winterers. If he’s a parallel to our WOL (Azem shard or not) - I’d wonder if his failing is trying to do everything alone, where as we build community.

That doesn't make any sense because Azem is specifically a person that Emet-Selch and Hythloadeus knew and loved as their dearest friend. They got on the nerves of the Convocation, punched a volcanic eruption to protect some grapes (and the people growing them), and actively develops ways to ease the burdens of travel.

[Shookbeast]

That doesn't make any sense because Azem is specifically a person that Emet-Selch and Hythloadeus knew and loved as their dearest friend. They got on the nerves of the Convocation, punched a volcanic eruption to protect some grapes (and the people growing them), and actively develops ways to ease the burdens of travel.

That all sounds exactly like stuff we’d do and relationships we’d build. Could be our Ancient buddies didn’t know it was us yet (glamour) or any number of mind trickery could be in play - or simply just sleight of hand writing that’s purposefully vague. So many ways that could be papered over.

[PorxiesRCute]

The version of this theory I feel is most likely, doesn’t end with us becoming Azem, but would be us finding out there is no Azem - because we go back in time and do all the stuff attributed to Azem (and then some).

So there is no great Ascian forebear named Azem.

There is no wizard. We’re the person behind the curtain.

“Azem” is just us, and our friends. And to me that’s perfectly in theme with the story. It’s us, just doing our best, against insurmountable odds. We’re a little weird. We’re a little noble. We make friends wherever we go. We may even love grapes.

To bring it back to Calyx, I get the vibe he’s being both bullied and intimidated by the Winterers. If he’s a parallel to our WOL (Azem shard or not) - I’d wonder if his failing is trying to do everything alone, where as we build community.

And that's the exact problem. The whole point is that the sundered are just as much people as the Ancients, but they're not the same people. Why would the game then do a 180 and go "no actually WOL and Azem were the same person all along, Emet-selch was right actually"?

[Cleretic]

That doesn't make any sense because Azem is specifically a person that Emet-Selch and Hythloadeus knew and loved as their dearest friend. They got on the nerves of the Convocation, punched a volcanic eruption to protect some grapes (and the people growing them), and actively develops ways to ease the burdens of travel.

And crucially, we don't look like them. There's at least dialog contingent on your race that suggests that lalafel and roegadyn are right out proportionally (there might be more specific stuff, but I only checked the dialog for Hope Upon a Flower just now), but nobody ever acts like we actually resemble them in any way but soul-ularly.

So what does that mean to those of us not playing a hyur if this is right? 'Too bad, your destiny is to have your entire character design thrown out to become a boring human?' Frankly, that sounds like a horrible end destiny, and most of us will fight destiny if it means having our cool ears and/or tails!

Besides, one of the other things we know about Azem is 'friends with Emet and Hyth', and that alone is a turn-off for a number of us. Frankly, I think my WoL has better standards than that.

[Yuella]

Unsundered Azem has to be a completely different person than WoL just like WoL and Ardbert are different people. Unsundered Fandaniel and Amon are also different people and Amon maintained his own persona up to the end.

[Shookbeast]

This is what I’ve got worked out.

1) Are we Azem?

If this theory hold true, then no, we are not. Azem is instead, us. There is no Azem. Azem is our character, and we remain our character, while the “lie/fable/ruse/cover story” of Azem grows around us as we cavort back in the time of the Ancients during some future expansion.

2) We don’t look like Azem though, so how is this possible?

I mean… how hard would it be to do a glamour? So just like Emet makes us big so we don’t stand out in Elpis - someone in the past (probably just for a little bit) dresses us up as an Ancient during part of the story. It’s just a glamour - so you’re not fated to stay that way. In fact, I’d bet our disguise drops at a dramatically inopportune time, exposing us for the pointy-eared and be-tailed weirdos we all are.

3) What about the sundering? What happens to our WOL if we’re present for the sundering?

This is the million dollar question.

A: If this is the last expansion, then we probably get sundered while saving all our Scion friends by sending them back to the future while we stay in the past. Then after we get sundered, the game loops back to us in the kart and we wake up and smile at the Twins.

B: If this isn’t the last expansion - then something or someone else gets sundered to make up our soul shards - while we get beamed back to the future after punching out a fully formed Zodiark. That something/someone could literally be anything. Even a villainous Azem shard who has collected 14 soul pieces (obviously not all Azem pieces in this case). That would be a real comeuppance for a bad Azem - getting broken apart to eventually make us.

So in short, for this theory, I accept the premise that:

-There is no Azem, it’s just us playing as the WOL in the past, via time travel, and people just call us Azem. At the end of the story, we either get sundered or we don’t. Works both ways.

[Dikatis]

This is what I’ve got worked out.

1) Are we Azem?

Just... no though. The Warrior of Light isn't Azem and can't even pass for being Azem. Their aether is so thin that they were almost completely invisible in the time of the ancients until Emet-Selch deigned to offer up enough of his aether to render WoL visible and tangible. Even then, they're still so thin that all of the traps that Hephaistos laid out for anyone coming to investigate the happenings of Pandaemonium failed to trigger because it's like having a mote of dust fall on a land mine.

The glamour argument falls completely flat when Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus both possess a keen sense of soul sight that lets them look straight through glamours and examine the shape and color of one's soul. There's no reason they wouldn't recognize their friend Azem on sight. While WoL's soul is the same color as Azem's, they are most assuredly not them.

It also ignores the hundreds or even thousands of years of history that Azem likely would have had with their friends. Even if you assumed that WoL would be as long-lived as ancient once fully rejoined (note, there's no actual evidence to this. It's faint hope that the Unsundered are clinging to), they would have to keep up an enormous lie that they don't know Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus or Venat, who are all trained specifically to spot virtually any deception. This would also require Lahabrea, the master of creation magicks that form the foundation of ancient society, to not notice that Azem is constantly wearing a glamour.

Not only that, but WoL would have had to travel tremendously far back in time to create this stable time loop of yours, requiring aether well in excess of Elidibus', one of the greatest and most powerful members of the Convocation and a genius mage in his own right. WoL does not have access to that kind of aether without inflicting ruinous environmental devastation.

Your theory requires too many assumptions to be plausible and undermines the message that WoL, for all their similarities to Azem, is still their own person, hence their decision to kill Azem's best friend Emet-Selch in favor of the present world.

It also has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PATCH 7.3, which means this is derailing the point of the thread.

[Shookbeast]

Just... no though. The Warrior of Light isn't Azem and can't even pass for being Azem. Their aether is so thin that they were almost completely invisible in the time of the ancients until Emet-Selch deigned to offer up enough of his aether to render WoL visible and tangible. Even then, they're still so thin that all of the traps that Hephaistos laid out for anyone coming to investigate the happenings of Pandaemonium failed to trigger because it's like having a mote of dust fall on a land mine.

The glamour argument falls completely flat when Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus both possess a keen sense of soul sight that lets them look straight through glamours and examine the shape and color of one's soul. There's no reason they wouldn't recognize their friend Azem on sight. While WoL's soul is the same color as Azem's, they are most assuredly not them.

It also ignores the hundreds or even thousands of years of history that Azem likely would have had with their friends. Even if you assumed that WoL would be as long-lived as ancient once fully rejoined (note, there's no actual evidence to this. It's faint hope that the Unsundered are clinging to), they would have to keep up an enormous lie that they don't know Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus or Venat, who are all trained specifically to spot virtually any deception. This would also require Lahabrea, the master of creation magicks that form the foundation of ancient society, to not notice that Azem is constantly wearing a glamour.

Not only that, but WoL would have had to travel tremendously far back in time to create this stable time loop of yours, requiring aether well in excess of Elidibus', one of the greatest and most powerful members of the Convocation and a genius mage in his own right. WoL does not have access to that kind of aether without inflicting ruinous environmental devastation.

Your theory requires too many assumptions to be plausible and undermines the message that WoL, for all their similarities to Azem, is still their own person, hence their decision to kill Azem's best friend Emet-Selch in favor of the present world.

It also has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PATCH 7.3, which means this is derailing the point of the thread.

Then why argue so hard to defend your POV in this thread? Your opinion, based on hand-wavy assumptions that writers could easily work over, are simply not the gospel you proclaim them to be.

I like the Azem theory. Other people do too. We could spend all day going back and forth on it.

For the sake of this thread I will quiet down on the Azem stuff though, but I find this constant “oh that’s impossible” to be gate-keepy and exhausting.

Edit:
(But I do think Calyx might be an Azem shard)