Job Complexity and Difficulty

[MartinFreeman]

Just do it how WOW does it. More customization options, different specs, and get rid of that shitty 2.5 gcd meta. And get rid of each class only being able to do fun stuff every two minutes.

[CidHeiral]

Just do it how WOW does it.

No thanks. WoW talents are almost entirely flat stat bonuses, cooldown/cost reductions, or isolated new buttons like "X does some damage and a stun." Even the new "Hero Trees" are mostly just "you do more damage." Talents can't make deep and interconnected changes to the class because the devs for the most part don't know which ones you'll have.

I can only speak for myself but when I'm asking for job complexity back I'm not asking for a pile of new buttons that have nothing to do with each other. I'm asking for the satisfying depth and interplay within the kits to return. That's one of the things that drew me to this game from WoW to begin with. DRG for example felt very interconnected in EW and now it feels like you're just rolling your face on your keyboard hitting a bunch of random unrelated crap. Adding even more of that through talents doesn't solve the problem.

And get rid of each class only being able to do fun stuff every two minutes.

This part however is 100% correct. The two minute meta sucks.

[MartinFreeman]

No thanks. WoW talents are almost entirely flat stat bonuses, cooldown/cost reductions, or isolated new buttons like "X does some damage and a stun." Even the new "Hero Trees" are mostly just "you do more damage." Talents can't make deep and interconnected changes to the class because the devs for the most part don't know which ones you'll have.

I can only speak for myself but when I'm asking for job complexity back I'm not asking for a pile of new buttons that have nothing to do with each other. I'm asking for the satisfying depth and interplay within the kits to return. That's one of the things that drew me to this game from WoW to begin with. DRG for example felt very interconnected in EW and now it feels like you're just rolling your face on your keyboard hitting a bunch of random unrelated crap. Adding even more of that through talents doesn't solve the problem.




This part however is 100% correct. The two minute meta sucks.

I don't consider Shadowlands, Dragonflight, or World Within as good systems. I prefer more of the talents from Cataclysm or before. Although there is some merit in Legion's, too.

[Shurrikhan]

No thanks. WoW talents are almost entirely flat stat bonuses, cooldown/cost reductions, or isolated new buttons like "X does some damage and a stun."

Too many of TWW's Talents? Yes. Most? Not at all.

DRG for example felt very interconnected in EW and now it feels like you're just rolling your face on your keyboard hitting a bunch of random unrelated crap.

Hot take, but...
Very little changed in the depth of the job; virtually only the skill floor was affected. Current DRG is effectively just EW DRG but with full Eyes upon entering combat and your Gier/Nost damage dealt over 2 casts per minute instead of 5. Though more punishing for not using your CDs more or less on-CD, it didn't actually offer any additional agency from that. You use High Jump as before. You use Mirage Dive as before. You use Geirskogul as before. Because there wasn't actual choice to be made between generating Eyes and dealing more immediate damage or anything else.

EW DRG didn't invite any sort of compromises the likes of what HW BotD could have given between F&C/WT access vs. more oGCD AoEs per GCD speed, downtime, and target-count before your next BotD CD. We just cycled our CDs, just as we do now, and just as we'd do even if we started with full scales, simply making sure to hit WWT within the first 5 GCDs.

I don't consider Shadowlands, Dragonflight, or World Within as good systems. I prefer more of the talents from Cataclysm or before. Although there is some merit in Legion's, too.

Cata and earlier talents, though, really were mostly stat-sticks. The current talent trees definitely give a hell of a lot more customization than WotLK's did, even if that comes with its own frustrations.

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That said, despite liking them more than disliking them on WoW, I don't want anything like WoW's talent trees in XIV. They're too much expense for too little punch, and there's no room to leverage that customization in our battle content anyways, so I'd rather some more essentialist/minimalist customization be produced hand-in-hand with some shifts in content design (without that simply devolving into build-flopping for different pieces of content). I despise when menuplay displaces actual gameplay.

[CidHeiral]

Too many of TWW's Talents? Yes. Most? Not at all.

You don't have to take my word for it. Anyone can easily see for themselves.

Hot take, but...
Very little changed in the depth of the job; virtually only the skill floor was affected. Current DRG is effectively just EW DRG but with full Eyes upon entering combat and your Gier/Nost damage dealt over 2 casts per minute instead of 5. Though more punishing for not using your CDs more or less on-CD, it didn't actually offer any additional agency from that. You use High Jump as before. You use Mirage Dive as before. You use Geirskogul as before. Because there wasn't actual choice to be made between generating Eyes and dealing more immediate damage or anything else.

EW DRG didn't invite any sort of compromises the likes of what HW BotD could have given between F&C/WT access vs. more oGCD AoEs per GCD speed, downtime, and target-count before your next BotD CD. We just cycled our CDs, just as we do now, and just as we'd do even if we started with full scales, simply making sure to hit WWT within the first 5 GCDs.

This is one of the wildest takes I've ever seen on this forum and that's really saying something.

[Shurrikhan]

You don't have to take my word for it. Anyone can easily see for themselves.

This isn't a matter of ignorance; I use them already, across most of WoW's classes/specs. I just disagree that they're, on the whole, unimpactful.

Let's look at your warrants one by one, though.

I. "Just flat stat bonuses":

Out of ~40 talents each...

• Arms -- 4 stat-sticks
• Fury -- 3 stat-sticks
• Protection -- 3-5 stat-stick talents (5 if you call things that slightly change defensive focus still stat-sticks just because they have a stat in the description, which is fair enough I guess, but then it'd also be just 3 if they have to have a stat in the description instead of just being passive, so... )
• Affliction -- 0 stat-sticks
• Demonology -- ~1 stat-sticks (indirectly)
• Destruction -- 0 stat-sticks
• ...
• And no more than 12% of talents on each spec tree thereafter.

Granted, if secondary stat choice could ever be considered a customization factor here, so would these be.

II. "Just Cooldown/Cost Reductions"
The cooldown/cost reductions are more likely than not to alter your gameplay / priorities / available rotational strings in some way. So, I'm not sure why you'd think this is non-customizing...


III. "Just isolated abilities that don't interact with anything else"

Non-interaction is almost innately impossible given damage amps and competing priorities, since in the absence of rote "combos", those actually come into play. And most have explicit connection to the rest of your skills or class/spec resources anyways...

Heck, how is a stun non-gameplay in a game where you can easily live or die, even in PvE, off of a stun? CC is an actual thing there, unlike here.

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Again, I think the WoW system is granular to the point of feeling bloated, but... let's not pretend these things have no impact on complexity/gameplay. The vast majority are gameplay-affecting, even if subtly individually (as one would expect from there being 60 of them taken and some 90 choices), which probably comes from its first and foremost being an RPG system (to make level-ups feel more palpable), not just an endgame-customization system.

(Personally, I'd rather have about a 10-20% as many, for fewer but more individually compelling choices. I'm fine with not getting some new choice each level. But hey, at least it was an attempt to make each class more likely to hit a greater breadth of "strike zones" by which people might come to enjoy a given class.)

High Jump and Mirage Dive are not used like before, since they're just damage now and not gauge generators.

Version A: Use two of skill X per minute, unlocking skill Y to be used per minute. You therefore use two X and one Y per minute.
Version B: Use two X and one Y per minute.

I didn't say that it wasn't less punishing than before. I said you use them with virtually the same timings as before. To any outside viewer, your actions are pretty much identical unless the EW DRG died with Eyes ready. The change was virtually just the loss of half a 'charge' of your LotD-activation.

You cannot choose to do a double or early LotD if you need to due to the fight's timeline or the target dying soon.

You already are in the early LotD, but aye, without the, in essence, second 'charge' of LotD available, that was one loss of control.

The current iteration is actually less punishing since you can delay your damage oGCDs as much as you can as long as they're still inside your buffs, which you can also delay and be alright unless the kill time severely cuts the burst window, and your burst is always given; there's no preparation or gauge stacking required besides WWT. This also has the effect of making deaths way less punishing than before.

This is where we're probably just not seeing eye to eye. I don't consider punishment from fight outcomes (e.g., getting PKed or standing in dumb) as kit depth or complexity. (Needing to use Sonic Thrust while staying out of chariots or running from Flares? Sure. Kit-unrelated deaths? No.)

Nor do I feel like starting with a couple of what still amount to cooldowns (used at exact timings thereafter for raid buff alignment) uncharged is going to change gameplay for any minute any time after the opener so that we use at minutes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc., instead of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. a significant change to the class.

Stormblood LotD gave us actual kit-based ways to fail our LotD usage that then interacted with the fight. As did Heavensward's BotD. EW's though... we lost double-LotD and now actually get to play with our most iconic tools in our opener. The difference just felt tiny compared to StB -> ShB (effectively removing BotD, as it ended up with a CD shorter than its duration, which could no longer be reduced by Gierskogul anyways) or HW -> StB before that.

[Aco505]

Hot take, but...
Very little changed in the depth of the job; virtually only the skill floor was affected. Current DRG is effectively just EW DRG but with full Eyes upon entering combat and your Gier/Nost damage dealt over 2 casts per minute instead of 5. Though more punishing for not using your CDs more or less on-CD, it didn't actually offer any additional agency from that. You use High Jump as before. You use Mirage Dive as before. You use Geirskogul as before. Because there wasn't actual choice to be made between generating Eyes and dealing more immediate damage or anything else.

The ceiling was affected too, especially on Ultimates although not exclusively. You cannot choose to do a double or early LotD if you need to due to the fight's timeline or the target dying soon. High Jump and Mirage Dive are not used like before, since they're just damage now and not gauge generators. This also has the effect of making the full kit feel disconnected since actions only deal damage and have no link between each other.

The current iteration is actually less punishing since you can delay your damage oGCDs as much as you can as long as they're still inside your buffs, which you can also delay and be alright unless the kill time severely cuts the burst window, and your burst is always given; there's no preparation or gauge stacking required besides WWT. This also has the effect of making deaths way less punishing than before.

Whatever optimization and ceiling left for the job is minimal (mostly reduced to MD/ePT and to a lesser extent WWT and LS) if we compare it to EW.