Job Complexity and Difficulty

[YukioKobayashi]

I find it quite amusing that players that have never stepped a foot inside savage or ultimates are complaining the most. (Especially about healer kits and design)
Have you ever played WoW? it's literally the same. You get though all casual group content while pressing 2-3 buttons over and over again.

[Supersnow845]

Again if you look at that xiv analysis diagram he is basically pressing one button IN SAVAGE, like again I don’t know why anyone is trying to pretend so much more is going on, the diagram is right there in black and white and it’s hilariously empty

And “lol you don’t do savage” doesn’t even work as an excuse, I used to do savage, I dropped it because of awful modern healer kits, but I don’t even need to prove my worth in savage. SOMEONE POSTED A DIAGRAM of their casts. It’s right there, what more do people want

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]SOMEONE POSTED A DIAGRAM of their casts. It’s right there, what more do people want

Did you called? :P

Is it hard to understand that I want something like this:


but NOT whatever garbage the following is:

I know it's not me but I thought it's a fine tangent for the topic on hand.

[Connor]

Why does content difficulty have to scale with literal player enjoyment anyway? Seems a bit ridiculous to me. If your jobs are ‘good in raid content’ but boring as hell in everything else you’ve still a problem. I should be having the time of my goddamn life as a healer doing Guildhests Yoshi-P

[Aravell]

I find it strange why some people keep repeating "You haven't done savage" as if it was some miraculous cure-all solution to the job design being boring.

It's not.

After reclearing savage enough times, you end up building your own script to follow and it becomes as boring as any dungeon run, the only difference would be that you can't wipe in a dungeon because one person stood 3 steps too far north of east.

[ForsakenRoe]

On the subject of 'toxic elitists will be toxic, and that is why we can't have additional optional complexity, they'll insist that it is not optional', that's the point of tuning potencies to be closer. In the example I gave previously on page 1 (the SCH one), if someone decided to be uppity in an EX roulette about how I was not using Biolysis on the boss, said player would lose like, 5 times as much damage due to angrily typing in the party chat. Alternatively, we can just ignore those players and their trash opinions because there exists a thing called the TOS, wherein anyone complaining about how Newbie Nathan isn't pressing his DOT as a WHM, can be reported by Newbie Nathan for trying to pressure him into playstyles he is not comfortable with

On the subject of XIVAnalysis pictures and Log analysis, please get a room


On the subject of 'why can't PVE be more like PVP' (presumably, the unpredictable nature of PVP), some things have already been discussed. However, I do think there are ways that SE could spice up some PVE encounters with randomness. Having fights be built from 'blocks' representing certain 'phases', and making those 'blocks' interchangeable within the fight, would go a long way to making the fights feel more fresh on repeat runs. IIRC, even as recently as Valigarmanda EX, we see this, with its Thunder/Ice phases being interchangeable in its timeline

Some examples that could have been applied to this tier's fights:

- M5S is constructed out of like, so many small 'chunks' (even the music for the fight is broken up into individual music track files!) that you could feasibly 'remix' every mechanic in the fight (leaving Arcady Night Fever 1/2 in their current positions). That's like, 8 or 9 'chunks' you could shift around to make different fight timelines from, making the fight feel pretty different on every run through

- In M6S, we have Desert Phase, Adds Phase, Riverscape Phase, and Lava Phase with the towers at the end. If we combine the River/Lava phases into one jumbo phase (as they're linked due to the Lava being a 'layer' she adds), then we have 3 large 'blocks' of fight design. If we assume that the Adds phase remains the 'mid point' of the fight and is locked in place, then the Desert phase and the River/Lava phase, could have been made interchangeable, such that some pulls she will do the Desert first, and others she will do the River/Lava section first.

- M7S actually does kinda do this already (slightly), in that after Debris Deathmatch, either the Ranged or the Melee will get the Seeds to drop in specific locations, while the other set of players gets chasing AOEs. Interestingly, whichever variation you do get, you don't have to do the opposite one in that run, which is nice (the fight would be so damn long if you did).

- In M8S, we have Millenial Decay (the 'go around in a circle and drop tornadoes' thing near the start), Terrestrial Rage (the bit right after add phase with the guns, clones, heads) and Beckon Moonlight (the 4 halfroom cleaves with spread/stack markers). These three could have been made interchangeable in the order in which they execute during the fight, such that one comes before the add phase, and two after. If there's some narrative thing in Terrestrial Rage/Beckon Moonlight as to why he has additional phantom heads as part of the mechanics (ie Tactical Pack gives him a power-up buff like in Normal Mode), then even having just those two interchangeable would still have been nice


So yeh, once again, I'm looking with lustful eyes at my beloved, Stormblood. Guardian O7S and his programs, Chaos O9S and his Elemental phases, etc, there isn't too much 'random'ness in those fights (the RNG of O9S meant that instead of one fight timeline, Chaos had 2, for example), but it helps the fights feel like they have a bit more staying power, and it can also be quite nice for progression. I would like to see if it's possible for SE to have a phase of an Ultimate like this, wherein every 'Trio' is done in a random order. For example, in UCOB, what would Phase 3 look like if Quickmarch, Blackfire, Fellruin, Heavensfall and Tenstrike Trio, were all in a random order each time (with Grand Octet being guaranteed to be the final one)? Would it be better, or worse, for progression, for the player experience, or the World First race experience? I think it'd be worth doing at least one time, just to find out the player reaction

[Maltothoris]

So yeh, once again, I'm looking with lustful eyes at my beloved, Stormblood. Guardian O7S and his programs, Chaos O9S and his Elemental phases, etc, there isn't too much 'random'ness in those fights (the RNG of O9S meant that instead of one fight timeline, Chaos had 2, for example), but it helps the fights feel like they have a bit more staying power, and it can also be quite nice for progression. I would like to see if it's possible for SE to have a phase of an Ultimate like this, wherein every 'Trio' is done in a random order. For example, in UCOB, what would Phase 3 look like if Quickmarch, Blackfire, Fellruin, Heavensfall and Tenstrike Trio, were all in a random order each time (with Grand Octet being guaranteed to be the final one)? Would it be better, or worse, for progression, for the player experience, or the World First race experience? I think it'd be worth doing at least one time, just to find out the player reaction

Prob the best "modern"(that being post stormblood) example of this was SoSex. After the limit break, there are 5 phases you could say. The war/smn combo, whm/blm combo, drk/brd combo, ninja and Quintuplecast. Quin is always the second phase but the other 4 are in a random order.

[Hallarem]

I'll give a simplified take. The fight and job design is flawed and not engaging

The game is so much against traditional MMO mechanics, and forces everyone to dps and play dodge dodge revolution. That I have not done anything above an extreme on release.

I want a game where healers' duty is to heal, and dps when they have time, not because they have to
I want a game where tanks are tanks, they guide the flow of battle, kite the bosses, position them right and swap etc
I want a game where dps have variety, unique mechanics that also help the battle in various ways
I want jobs to have varied unique flavored mechanics / talents / abilities that can be used for flavor and usefully in the open world as well

But I don't think it's possible with the current designers in the team, they don't want you to have a game like that. They want a streamlined soup of same, I am a 100% sure that the new people in the team have never played an MMO and are designing the game from a basis of "What is the most approachable for the general audience" which drives away the MMO crowd which this game is supposed to be catering to. Even ultracasuals are bored, I can guarantee you.

[Hallarem]

I'll give a simplified take. The fight and job design is flawed and not engaging

The game is so much against traditional MMO mechanics, and forces everyone to dps and play dodge dodge revolution. That I have not done anything above an extreme on release.

I want a game where healers' duty is to heal, and dps when they have time, not because they have to
I want a game where tanks are tanks, they guide the flow of battle, kite the bosses, position them right and swap etc
I want a game where dps have variety, unique mechanics that also help the battle in various ways
I want jobs to have varied unique flavored mechanics / talents / abilities that can be used for flavor and usefully in the open world as well

But I don't think it's possible with the current designers in the team, they don't want you to have a game like that. They want a streamlined soup of same, I am a 100% sure that the new people in the team have never played an MMO and are designing the game from a basis of "What is the most approachable for the general audience" which drives away the MMO crowd which this game is supposed to be catering to. Even ultracasuals are bored, I can guarantee you.

[Asari5]

as easier and simpler something gets as more do otherd expect you to do it and wanna force it on you.

unpatient players in dungeons is another exemple. sure there were always unpatient people but nowhere as many as nowadays