Job Complexity and Difficulty

[Aravell]

Why can't PvE be more like PvP?

I think the main difference is that the objective set out by the developers in PvE content is for you to (eventually) win, while that's not the case in PvP.

Because of that, PvE encounters are set to follow a strict script that the players can solve and get their win after, contrasting with that, you cannot "solve" PvP because it involves multiple unpredictable people in the field at once. So PvE encounters are only an interaction between your job kit and the script that the boss follows, whether your buttons are useful or not depends on the script, that's why PvE feels like you can clear it just fine with just movement keys and one attack button. On the other side, PvP can actually give you just 5 buttons and be very engaging because your content is not scripted.

So why can't PvE be more like PvP? Because that would require encounters to be unscripted, and if you take unscripted encounters with the mechanics vomit that the dev team enjoys right now together, you get encounters that can occasionally spit out unsolvable mechanics, which runs counter to the end objective of letting the player win. If you then restrict the randomness so it doesn't cause unsolvable mechanics to happen, you run the risk of creating a solvable script once again.

What some of us have been asking for though, is a return of player interaction in PvE. This makes PvE encounters more random because of the players you match with, without messing too much with the scripts they enjoy writing.

[Mawlzy]

So why can't PvE be more like PvP? Because that would require encounters to be unscripted, and if you take unscripted encounters with the mechanics vomit that the dev team enjoys right now together, you get encounters that can occasionally spit out unsolvable mechanics, which runs counter to the end objective of letting the player win. If you then restrict the randomness so it doesn't cause unsolvable mechanics to happen, you run the risk of creating a solvable script once again.

Isn't there a middle ground where there is a baseline "script," but the ability of players to interact with the boss beyond chip damage impacts how the fight plays out?

Like tanking in many of the new boss fights seems unnecessarily limited. Point the boss north. Okay. Oh look it's now jumping across the stage! And things from beyond the arena are throwing rocks at me.

There's no reason in principle why we could not stun, silence, interrupt, heavy, knock back, blind, bind, poison, yeet... the boss. Similarly for anything appearing at the side of the arena. Strikes me as far more interesting and would justify having 30 buttons.

[Kohashi]

As someone who is bad at PvE, I find the encounter design to be very puzzling, particularly in DT.

I have over 2 hotbars of buttons. Why? I mostly use W, S and mouse because I'm trying not to die. I imagine those of you who are good at PvE use more buttons in a set sequence, over and over and over again. Is this interesting to you? I like playing piano occasionally, but in that instance the result is a pleasing sound.

With fight design that boils down to "inflict damage, move somewhere to avoid damage/soak/couple/clap like a seal" you don't need all these buttons, particularly when you're struggling to find the good spot on the floor. The fight would be no more nor less interesting if all you had was one damage button along with W, S and mouse.

Contrast this with PvP. I use all my buttons! I am in constant motion. Every encounter is different. Sometimes I use my buttons in a different order because of the nature of the engagement and am correct to do so. I enjoy PvP and am quite good at it.

Why can't PvE be more like PvP?

You have 2 bars? Lucky you, I got 3 in the least, and most are around 4 full bars that I consistently use in a complete rotation. There is no such thing as pressing 1 button and then trying to find the safe spot. If I do that, the only safe spot that I will find is on the floor.



Also, I am all for the reduction of the button bloat. Having 4 full bars of skills it's pretty stupid.

[Raikai]

Exactly. I mean, there's still value in being ranged, so VPR wouldn't take that spot as it wouldn't be viable for it. But the party composition would end up being BLM + PCT/RDM/SMN.

Phys Ranged needs a new reason to exist other than bringing that party slot buff.

[Supersnow845]

^i love how half the total icons there are eos auto casting embrace

Otherwise there is 27 buttons there in a 3 minute window not called broil or biolysis and of those 27 4 are chain or baneful, 3 are lucid and another 3 are aetherflow

It really doesn’t present a good picture for SCH who is already the most complex healer by a country mile anyway

[Kohashi]

^i love how half the total icons there are eos auto casting embrace

Otherwise there is 27 buttons there in a 3 minute window not called broil or biolysis and of those 27 4 are chain or baneful, 3 are lucid and another 3 are aetherflow

It really doesn’t present a good picture for SCH who is already the most complex healer by a country mile anyway

What the F are you talking about? Most of those are oGCDs, look at the damn GCDs as well.

[Supersnow845]

What the F are you talking about? Most of those are oGCDs, look at the damn GCDs as well.

Yes I know how to read xiv analysis. Outside of your GCD’s which were overwhelmingly broil and biolysis (there is one adlo, 3 ascensions and concitations, and like 5 ruin 2’s) the overwhelming amount of other actions were eos casting embrace

Casting 27 oGCD’s in 3 minutes when 4 are a raid buff and 6 are “upkeep” for mana and resources really isn’t a lot

So unless your point was “SCH’s gameplay is overwhelmingly casting broil and watching eos cast embrace” I’m not sure what that diagram is meant to represent as all it does is show how vapid SCH’s gameplay is

[Kohashi]

Yes I know how to read xiv analysis. Outside of your GCD’s which were overwhelmingly broil and biolysis (there is one adlo, 3 ascensions and concitations, and like 5 ruin 2’s) the overwhelming amount of other actions were eos casting embrace

Casting 27 oGCD’s in 3 minutes when 4 are a raid buff and 6 are “upkeep” for mana and resources really isn’t a lot

So unless your point was “SCH’s gameplay is overwhelmingly casting broil and watching eos cast embrace” I’m not sure what that diagram is meant to represent as all it does is show how vapid SCH’s gameplay is

Apparently, you don't, yet you continue to argue. I mean, it's no mystery that your "14 years" of playing healers sums up as null at the end.

Do you understand what 40k Heal Per SECOND means? And sure, I do cast Broil because I am expected to contribute to damage.

[Supersnow845]

Apparently, you don't, yet you continue to argue. I mean, it's no mystery that your "14 years" of playing healers sums up as null at the end.

Do you understand what 40k Heal Per SECOND means? And sure, I do cast Broil because I am expected to contribute to damage.

I really really do wonder what comment you are reading

I don’t care what your HPS is. I’m responding to the fact that you responded to someone going “I wish we used our entire kit and it wasn’t so bloated” with a xiv analysis diagram showing you overwhelmingly used broil and watched eos cast embrace. If you were using that to try to show how much your kit is being used then you really missed the mark

All that diagram shows is how bad SCH’s gameplay is

[Supersnow845]

I see my nefarious plan to twist people’s words amounts to “other person misread my post”

I don’t care that embrace is a fraction of your actual HPS, I pointed out that your xiv analysis diagram that’s apparently full of actions is rather empty when you ignore broil and embrace casts

There is less than 40 actions on that not embrace, broil or biolysis, in a 3 minute window, for reference there is 216 potential actions per 3 minutes (288 if you count per GCD) you can theoretically conduct, and SCH is spending less than 40 of them doing ANYTHING that’s not your one button spam or watching the fairy auto cast embrace AND THATS A 3 MINUTE WINDOW THAT INCLUDES 2 BURSTS WHERE DAMAGE IS HIGHEST