Can Humans transformed into Pirmals temper?

[Anonymoose]

I don't know how best to call them

I usually call them "incarnate summons" for short.

The lore on them has been reframed a few times over the years, too, so it's not surprising it's a little confusing; but Layte is correct.


When Shiva was the only example, Nabriales framed the phenomenon as a brand new idea Lahabrea had tasked him to make work, and suggested that the Echo was what made it possible. There was a suggestion that the heretics might be tempered, but only to keep you guessing about her values and intentions, it turned out.

That envelope was already being pushed by Thordan only a couple patches later. The metaphysics behind Thordan were explained out-of-world - by the developers - several times, but it turned out that contradictory information was given, suggesting perhaps that there were multiple drafts of the explanation behind the scenes and not everyone was up to date on the latest version. One version was that individual primals were summoned into each of the Heavens' Ward to "perfect the process", which was finally used for Thordan. In that version, you could perhaps expect the entire Ward to be able to temper. However, if that version was ever true, it no longer is. The later explanation was that Thordan was summoned first and is the only actual primal in play - the Ward received a "blessing" from him and their transformations were an extension of Thordan's power through that blessing.

This also left a few things in an ambiguous space. For one, if it was true (at any time in the writing process) that Shiva was only possible due to the Echo, was it ever intended that anyone involved in the Ishgard story would have been given the Echo? Elidibus randomly gave a Sahagin the Echo as the Throdan story's ingredients were being introduced. That Sahagin was then consumed by Leviathan. Was that a foreshadow of how Thordan works and Lahabrea's eventual fate? Or were those just coincidences? We did see Elidibus standing with Lahabrea behind Thordan, after all, but that doesn't rule out "coincidence". I asked that question in an interview once and Oda-san preferred to dodge the subject entirely for the time being. (I suspect he was concerned that solving a single point of confusion before it was absolutely necessary might create bigger problems down the line.)

Another question left open at the time was whether Thordan tempered the knights. Early PR blurbs said that he held the threat over their heads, suggesting he hadn't. But to what degree could they avoid his influence if they were "blessed"? Later on, Oda-san invoked the "degrees of tempering" lore, saying that Thordan only baked them "rare" but held the threat of "well-done" over their heads. (Perhaps this dynamic of blessing/tempering was even part of why they were made one primal instead of a dozen, and why the Echo was no longer mentioned as an ingredient in incarnate summoning.)

By the time we got to Tsukiyomi, some other questions remained and we had new ones from Susano besides - but SE was ready to answer them. The Echo is not required, but if you don't have it, incarnate summoning will temper you to whatever your own whims and desires were at the time of the summoning, and - as we then knew from Thordan - you might temper others to them, as well.

Incidentally, I don't know that we ever learned for sure whether "Elidibus gave Thordan the Echo" or "Thordan tempered himself" was more likely. It's almost more fun to not know for sure; both work, and it opens the door to the question, "Would it even have made a practical difference in his case?" That "What are you?" scene, where he sees you from his perspective, is even more uncomfortable if you can't be sure.

Anyroad, rambling aside, Layte is correct.

Not only were the Ward tempered, but Thordan suggests that a big part of his plan was essentially to build the Holy Ishgardian Empire through mass "blessing" (which I speculate was intended by Elidibus to create a casus belli for dramatically escalated Garlean aggression and a calamity-scale conflict).

Citations:

Oda (in an interview with 4gamer):
After former Heavens' Ward archimandrite, Ser Vaindreau de Rouchemande “retired”, Zephirin was chosen as archimandrite and was allowed to designate the new members of the Heavens’ Ward. The knights were turned when all twelve were granted an audience with the archbishop for the first time. Keep in mind that becoming tempered does not necessarily mean that the individual loses all their memories and characteristics. The archbishop, in particular could not risk the populace becoming suspicious of his actions, so he didn’t “fully cook” the knights of the Heavens' Ward into mindless tempered, opting to keep them at a “rare” state instead. Thus they were not puppets that did nothing but repeat words of worship, but he nevertheless ensured that they would obey his orders and never betray him. This is the difference between him and the other primals like Ifrit, who prefer their tempered “well done”.

Unending Codex
Upon their return to the capital, Estinien and his companions discovered that Archbishop Thordan VII had plotted to wield the power of a primal to transform himself into an eternal god-king and bless the world with his twisted idea of harmony.

Thordan (EN)
By my blessing shall all men be sanctified, and an endless era of peace begin. Vice and conflict shall cease to be.

Thordan (JP)
そして すべての人に祝福をあたえ
清らかなる聖徒に造り替え 恒久の平和を授けよう
I will bestow a blessing on the people - transform them into pure saints - and grant them everlasting peace.

[Cleretic]

I usually call them "incarnate summons" for short.

The lore on them has been reframed a few times over the years, too, so it's not surprising it's a little confusing; but Layte is correct.

I've liked to call them 'channeled primals'. Because the only difference is that they're being channeled through a person, rather than summoned in and of themselves.

But yeah, the short answer is that they can, and the main reason we can't be certain of that is that they mostly didn't. Either because of lack of opportunity in Tsukuyomi's case, outright avoiding the circumstances that would lead to it in Hydaelyn's, or perhaps unintentionally avoiding the circumstances in Shiva's. In contrast, the core evidence that they can is Thordan, which as Anonymoose said, was an out-of-game, years-later explanation, but is one that broadly tracks.

I also personally think that Zodiark is one of these; that's kinda hard to tell, we don't have a lot of details on the summoning act there. If Zodiark counts, he also tempered.

And as to whether or not Thordan had the Echo... I honestly think the story is better if he doesn't. He's a man seeped in his own delusions, it makes total sense that he's locked into them by self-tempering.