Can Humans transformed into Pirmals temper?

[No_Nick_Needed]

I don't know how best to call them, but can the kind of Primals that are transformed Humans, like Shiva, Thorden, Tsukuyomi and the Heaven's Ward temper others like purely summoned Primals can?
I don't remember this ever coming up in the game.

I don't think we can judge off of any of them, since Ysale would probably not have wanted to temper anyone, Thordan never got the chance, since we thrashed him right after his transformation, Yatsuyu neither had the opportunity nor would have wanted to, and the Heaven's Ward appear to be a far lesser version (though with plenty of motivation to do it), so their inability to temper might be due this lesser transformation.

[Layte_Aeon]

Yes, the Heavens Ward are explicitly tempered by Thordan.

[Anonymoose]

I don't know how best to call them

I usually call them "incarnate summons" for short.

The lore on them has been reframed a few times over the years, too, so it's not surprising it's a little confusing; but Layte is correct.


When Shiva was the only example, Nabriales framed the phenomenon as a brand new idea Lahabrea had tasked him to make work, and suggested that the Echo was what made it possible. There was a suggestion that the heretics might be tempered, but only to keep you guessing about her values and intentions, it turned out.

That envelope was already being pushed by Thordan only a couple patches later. The metaphysics behind Thordan were explained out-of-world - by the developers - several times, but it turned out that contradictory information was given, suggesting perhaps that there were multiple drafts of the explanation behind the scenes and not everyone was up to date on the latest version. One version was that individual primals were summoned into each of the Heavens' Ward to "perfect the process", which was finally used for Thordan. In that version, you could perhaps expect the entire Ward to be able to temper. However, if that version was ever true, it no longer is. The later explanation was that Thordan was summoned first and is the only actual primal in play - the Ward received a "blessing" from him and their transformations were an extension of Thordan's power through that blessing.

This also left a few things in an ambiguous space. For one, if it was true (at any time in the writing process) that Shiva was only possible due to the Echo, was it ever intended that anyone involved in the Ishgard story would have been given the Echo? Elidibus randomly gave a Sahagin the Echo as the Throdan story's ingredients were being introduced. That Sahagin was then consumed by Leviathan. Was that a foreshadow of how Thordan works and Lahabrea's eventual fate? Or were those just coincidences? We did see Elidibus standing with Lahabrea behind Thordan, after all, but that doesn't rule out "coincidence". I asked that question in an interview once and Oda-san preferred to dodge the subject entirely for the time being. (I suspect he was concerned that solving a single point of confusion before it was absolutely necessary might create bigger problems down the line.)

Another question left open at the time was whether Thordan tempered the knights. Early PR blurbs said that he held the threat over their heads, suggesting he hadn't. But to what degree could they avoid his influence if they were "blessed"? Later on, Oda-san invoked the "degrees of tempering" lore, saying that Thordan only baked them "rare" but held the threat of "well-done" over their heads. (Perhaps this dynamic of blessing/tempering was even part of why they were made one primal instead of a dozen, and why the Echo was no longer mentioned as an ingredient in incarnate summoning.)

By the time we got to Tsukiyomi, some other questions remained and we had new ones from Susano besides - but SE was ready to answer them. The Echo is not required, but if you don't have it, incarnate summoning will temper you to whatever your own whims and desires were at the time of the summoning, and - as we then knew from Thordan - you might temper others to them, as well.

Incidentally, I don't know that we ever learned for sure whether "Elidibus gave Thordan the Echo" or "Thordan tempered himself" was more likely. It's almost more fun to not know for sure; both work, and it opens the door to the question, "Would it even have made a practical difference in his case?" That "What are you?" scene, where he sees you from his perspective, is even more uncomfortable if you can't be sure.

Anyroad, rambling aside, Layte is correct.

Not only were the Ward tempered, but Thordan suggests that a big part of his plan was essentially to build the Holy Ishgardian Empire through mass "blessing" (which I speculate was intended by Elidibus to create a casus belli for dramatically escalated Garlean aggression and a calamity-scale conflict).

Citations:

Oda (in an interview with 4gamer):
After former Heavens' Ward archimandrite, Ser Vaindreau de Rouchemande “retired”, Zephirin was chosen as archimandrite and was allowed to designate the new members of the Heavens’ Ward. The knights were turned when all twelve were granted an audience with the archbishop for the first time. Keep in mind that becoming tempered does not necessarily mean that the individual loses all their memories and characteristics. The archbishop, in particular could not risk the populace becoming suspicious of his actions, so he didn’t “fully cook” the knights of the Heavens' Ward into mindless tempered, opting to keep them at a “rare” state instead. Thus they were not puppets that did nothing but repeat words of worship, but he nevertheless ensured that they would obey his orders and never betray him. This is the difference between him and the other primals like Ifrit, who prefer their tempered “well done”.

Unending Codex
Upon their return to the capital, Estinien and his companions discovered that Archbishop Thordan VII had plotted to wield the power of a primal to transform himself into an eternal god-king and bless the world with his twisted idea of harmony.

Thordan (EN)
By my blessing shall all men be sanctified, and an endless era of peace begin. Vice and conflict shall cease to be.

Thordan (JP)
そして すべての人に祝福をあたえ
清らかなる聖徒に造り替え 恒久の平和を授けよう
I will bestow a blessing on the people - transform them into pure saints - and grant them everlasting peace.

[Cleretic]

I usually call them "incarnate summons" for short.

The lore on them has been reframed a few times over the years, too, so it's not surprising it's a little confusing; but Layte is correct.

I've liked to call them 'channeled primals'. Because the only difference is that they're being channeled through a person, rather than summoned in and of themselves.

But yeah, the short answer is that they can, and the main reason we can't be certain of that is that they mostly didn't. Either because of lack of opportunity in Tsukuyomi's case, outright avoiding the circumstances that would lead to it in Hydaelyn's, or perhaps unintentionally avoiding the circumstances in Shiva's. In contrast, the core evidence that they can is Thordan, which as Anonymoose said, was an out-of-game, years-later explanation, but is one that broadly tracks.

I also personally think that Zodiark is one of these; that's kinda hard to tell, we don't have a lot of details on the summoning act there. If Zodiark counts, he also tempered.

And as to whether or not Thordan had the Echo... I honestly think the story is better if he doesn't. He's a man seeped in his own delusions, it makes total sense that he's locked into them by self-tempering.

[No_Nick_Needed]

I always assumed that the Sahagin shaman had the echo naturally, and the Ascians just taught him to do this trick with it. After all the not-yet-WoL had the echo dormant in them, presumably for some time, before it awakened during the early parts of the story, maybe it was the same with teh Sahagin, that he just had not awakening it, but it was already there, when the Ascians started meddling with him.

Then again, between Zenos and Fordola, we know that the echo can be given, copied or transfered in some manour artificially and if the Garleans can do it, then surely the Ascians can too.

I think Zodiark and Hydaelyn are different. The others all returned to their original bodies, once their primal body was killed. But Zodiarka nd Hydaelyn didn't, they just disappeared. And with Zodiark, I think we can also safely assume that it was the prayers and sacrifices by the worshippers that altered his "tempering" rather than Elidibus himself at the moment of the summoning. After all the original plan was to only rewrite the celestial currents to block the Song of Oblivion, which was then altered into rebuilding the world and then again altered into killing the "lesser races" to revive the dead Ancients.

The partial tempering though is interesting. Could that be, what the blessing of light is, Hydaelyn partially tempering us, but in a way that preserves our free will?

I agree that Thordan not having the Echo fits better, especially with his "What are you!" line, right before his end.

[Layte_Aeon]

...

A number of those points do have answers:

The Sahagin did naturally have the Echo. Anyone with a sundered soul has it, but it needs to be awakened, usually by witnessing a star shower or the like. And while theoretically generating the "resonant" is possible, from what we've seen, it's not easy, and comes with a few drawbacks. Not to mention, the Ascian's were never hinted to have such a power. Emet-Selch did note that they could raise a soul without the echo into an Ascian, but that it works better with those who do have the echo.

Zodiark & Hydaelyn are different to most other primals, in that there were the first ones and so made with different means. Zodiark was, in essence, a Mech-Suit for Elidibus, and so when he exited it as a new primal in his own right, Zodiark was left a husk of power. While Hydaelyn was likely the same, Venat felt no need to leave, and so didn't. Livingway mentions that Zodiark & Hydaelyn, due to the nature of their creation, didn't have tempering in mind, however Zodiark was so large and operated n so huge a scale that other beings would be affected by him. Much like how an engine will always make loud noises if it gets too big. When the Ascians gave the broken rituals to the beast tribes to conjure their gods, they did so in such a manner that summoning would maximise the impact, like making an engine designed to produce excess noise.

Also the Blessing of Light ain't tempering, Y'shtola can see tempering, and even mentioned the dangers of absorbing light in Shadowbringers. The Blessing of Light is, in truth, not one thing but a catch all term for any direct intervention by Hydaelyn. Stripping the primals from the Ultima Weapon, empowering the crystals of light, the aegis against aetherial corruption, a method of communion, all of these are manifestations of her blessing. And so all fall under the label, Blessing of Light.

[Cleretic]

Also the Blessing of Light ain't tempering, Y'shtola can see tempering, and even mentioned the dangers of absorbing light in Shadowbringers. The Blessing of Light is, in truth, not one thing but a catch all term for any direct intervention by Hydaelyn. Stripping the primals from the Ultima Weapon, empowering the crystals of light, the aegis against aetherial corruption, a method of communion, all of these are manifestations of her blessing. And so all fall under the label, Blessing of Light.

This is kinda true, but not quite right.

There is one specific thing that feels like it's codified as 'the Blessing of Light', and it's the 'traveler's ward' that protects against aetheric corruption. it is specifically a ward, it does this very specific thing, it has never been any form of tempering, and in fact the only person in-universe who ever suggests that it's tempering is immediately told that he's wrong by his own god, who's kind of an expert on the subject. (Weird how people only ever remember and put weight on one half of that exchange.)

Other acts by Hydaelyn aren't 'the Blessing of Light' and don't ever seen to be specifically called that in the game by my reckoning, but are understandably sort of rolled up into a similar ballpark by some. But if someone ever specifically refers to 'the Blessing of Light' as a specific, non-abstract thing, then it refers to the traveler's ward. Kind of a squares and rectangles thing.

[Layte_Aeon]

This is kinda true, but not quite right.

There is one specific thing that feels like it's codified as 'the Blessing of Light', and it's the 'traveler's ward' that protects against aetheric corruption. it is specifically a ward, it does this very specific thing, it has never been any form of tempering, and in fact the only person in-universe who ever suggests that it's tempering is immediately told that he's wrong by his own god, who's kind of an expert on the subject. (Weird how people only ever remember and put weight on one half of that exchange.)

Other acts by Hydaelyn aren't 'the Blessing of Light' and don't ever seen to be specifically called that in the game by my reckoning, but are understandably sort of rolled up into a similar ballpark by some. But if someone ever specifically refers to 'the Blessing of Light' as a specific, non-abstract thing, then it refers to the traveler's ward. Kind of a squares and rectangles thing.

Really? I could have sworn the Encyclopaedia Eorzea 1 had a page on the Blessing of Light which described it as Hydaelyn’s direct interventions. And I’m pretty sure no new info contradicts that, this game’s usually pretty good about that.

[Cleretic]

Really? I could have sworn the Encyclopaedia Eorzea 1 had a page on the Blessing of Light which described it as Hydaelyn’s direct interventions. And I’m pretty sure no new info contradicts that, this game’s usually pretty good about that.

You're right about that section, and I did forget it! I blame the fact its text kinda blends in to the art behind it, so I kept skipping it.

That said, the way the writing has evolved over the years since then made the term much more specific in its use; in Shadowbringers and especially Endwalker, the 'Blessing of Light' is used exclusively to describe the corruption protection, perhaps in part because at that point Hydaelyn wasn't really doing any of the other stuff. It's not exactly contradictory to that paragraph in the EE1, so much as a necessary narrowing of terms: as the story started focusing much more on this one specific thing Hydaelyn was doing, it started becoming the Blessing of Light, if only because that one specific thing needed a name.

[SannaR]

There is the whole early game muddling of what is the echo and what is the blessing of light. As until late Stormblood and even then more so Shadowbringers do those two start to be separated. I want to say Thordan was also able to strip their tempering or at the very least the archbishop didn't care if he had to allow one of the Heavens Ward to die. As with how Charibert joined the Heavens Ward in the tales from the dragonsong war story: What Remains of a Knight.

I also don't think everyone has the echo or at least has the innate ability to awaken to it as any newer souls that came to be after the sundering wouldn't seemingly be able to have an etched in memory of the original final days. As most of the Scions have born witness to multiple starshowers without awakening to the echo. The WoL's 1st known chance at seeing one would have been during one of the 10yr time prior to 1.0's happenings echo flash backs of the one that appeared during the battle of Silvertear sky. Or as a child/teenager when that event would have happened naturally in their life span.