Quick thought with paladin and 1.22b

[Duelle]

While taking into consideration reworking some weapon skills and block mechanics maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to look at stat allocation as well.

Warriors main stats are STR and VIT, this make since in a tanking prospective, more VIT for HP and damage mitigation, more STR for damage to increase enmity generation.
One of problem here in my eyes, paladin has the primary and secondary stats set up as STR and MND.

Think this through for a second, if you want the class to be a tank, you really need VIT for higher health and damage mitigation, and the main stat for blocking is DEX. It's a complete miss on both stats for paladin. If you are forced to keep higher hit points and use a shield maybe change the primary and secondary stats to VIT and DEX? I don't know how much it would help the matter without changing a ton of skills and what not, but it seems like a simple thing to try for 1.22a.

This is not a problem if the devs deal with the issue on the scaling side rather than change things for paladins.

My own take on this is that STR should be changed to be a modifier for shield blocks. That way you benefit from the increase in DPS as well as the improved shiled blocks (could be increased chance, or increased damaged mitigated when blocking, etc). Likewise, for PLDs MND should probably affect accuracy rather than weapon damage.

With this in mind, tank gear from here on should have STR as well as the staple tank stats like VIT and MND in the case of PLDs. Honestly speaking tank gear can come out in one of two ways: stats favoring PLDs (STR, MND, VIT) and gear favoring WARs, or unifying tank stats and releasing tank gear that way. I'd be in favor of gear that clearly favors PLDs, should the stats on said gear reflect it.

if you're stat'ing your PLD for DPS (STR), I don't think you're doing it right. Sadly, this is how FFXI ended up too, with turtle PLD being disrespected in favor of ATK/ACC builds.

A good chunk of a tank's threat/aggro/hate/enmity comes from the damage they deal.

[Wincy]

A good chunk of a tank's threat/aggro/hate/enmity comes from the damage they deal.

Yea no I understand the concept, I just think it sucks. Maybe WAR should be that way, but my vision of a PLD generates Enmity from skills, not DPS. PLD is simply not supposed to have high DPS in my mind.

Although, pretty sure SE agrees with you.

[Duelle]

Yea no I understand the concept, I just think it sucks. Maybe WAR should be that way, but my vision of a PLD generates Enmity from skills, not DPS. PLD is simply not supposed to have high DPS in my mind.

Although, pretty sure SE agrees with you.

They may agree with me, but their itemization doesn't seem to be working as it should.

Ideally, we could tier stats into categories first.

Primary Stats: STR, VIT, DEX, AGI, INT, MND, PIE
Secondary Stats: +Attack, +Accuracy, +Magic Accuracy, +Magic Potency, +Block Chance, +Block Value, +Evasion, +HP, +MP

Assuming you design gear for PLD, you can go one of several routes.

1) Design the gear to have one of the two "main" PLD stats and a tank stat, and then secondary stats to further help.

Examples:

Duelle's Breastplate of Taruness
+30 STR +45 VIT
+20 Accuracy +17 Block Rating

Duelle's Gauntlets of Taruness
+25 MND +30 DEX
+40 Block Value +70 HP

2) Alter the "main" stats in a way that they account for all the vital aspects of the tank class in question, then design the gear around it.

Patch Notes:
Paladin
- STR now also increases shield block chance, shield block rating, weapon damage.
- MND now also increases defense, evasion, weapon accuracy, and increases HP.

Example:

Duelle's Breastplate of Taruness
+40 STR +65 MND

3) Focus on the "main" stats, and use secondary stats to compensate.

Example:

Duelle's Breastplate of Taruness
+30 STR +25 MND
+200 HP +75 Accuracy

-------

There's probably several other approaches I haven't touched, including the one I know everyone here would oppose for the sake of continuing to hate on games like WoW, which would be make STR and VIT the main stats on all tank gear and then have the classes individually scale from those stats in their own way (STR counting towards shield block rating for warriors, as opposed to death knights whose parry rating scaled from STR, for example).

The bottom line is that itemization may not be exactly helping PLD's case, and IMO that would need to change.

[Enfarious]

...
There's probably several other approaches I haven't touched, including the one I know everyone here would oppose for the sake of continuing to hate on games like WoW, which would be make STR and VIT the main stats on all tank gear and then have the classes individually scale from those stats in their own way (STR counting towards shield block rating for warriors, as opposed to death knights whose parry rating scaled from STR, for example).

The bottom line is that itemization may not be exactly helping PLD's case, and IMO that would need to change.

Sorry but avoiding wall of text.

There are a few others, but at the end of the day it all boils down to about the same thing, GLA/PLD is working off of the wrong stats.
STR is a DMG stat, how strong I am doesn't help me get my shield in the way of that sword, it doesn't help me dodge the next attack and it doesn't help me get my weapon up into the path of the next attack headed my way. It does determine how large a shield I can carry effectively, since a larger shield covers more of me it stands to reason that it'd be easier to block with, it doesn't have to move as far or as accurately, than say a buckler which I'd have to move pretty precisely to make sure that it ate the brunt of the next attack instead of my arm, that's a dex/agi thing.
VIT(endurance) is the ability to withstand things typically of a physically exhausting nature. This is a very passive stat having it affect things like HP and physical dmg reduction make sense.
DEX is mostly covered in my rant on STR but it also works toward getting a weapon precisely positioned when you attack so that accuracy thing.
INT(IQ) gets into the somewhat invisible and arbitrary things, harder to measure but the use stands to reason, it takes brain power to cast a spell more means brain more effect, I think PIE was a mistake in it's present conception.
MND(a function of IQ) working in tandem with INT like STR<>VIT only for magic
PIE ok this is the brainy equiv to DEX, it was a poor choice of names since it implies holiness and devotion to god/gods, would imply that it's a WHM base stat and that WHM is based on devotion/holiness/god/gods/light magic, were this the case it would also affect cure potency but MND already does this, but they've obviously gone and made it a Druid instead of a WHM, they need to rename WHM or PIE lol

With that all said and out of the way:
IF PLD isn't meant to be a DDing Tank STR should simply NOT be one of it's primary stats. They should be chosen from DEX(block acc/rate) VIT(hp pdt) MND(Cure potency, mdt)

That's it, all that preamble for that little bit.

Edit: I failed in avoiding the wall, but it's not as bad as it could have been.

[Duelle]

STR is a DMG stat, how strong I am doesn't help me get my shield in the way of that sword, it doesn't help me dodge the next attack and it doesn't help me get my weapon up into the path of the next attack headed my way. It does determine how large a shield I can carry effectively, since a larger shield covers more of me it stands to reason that it'd be easier to block with, it doesn't have to move as far or as accurately, than say a buckler which I'd have to move pretty precisely to make sure that it ate the brunt of the next attack instead of my arm, that's a dex/agi thing.

According to FFXI. I'm trying to be a little more generalized when looking at stats. Though yes, Warriors and Paladins in WoW had shield block rating and chance of block boosted by strength. As I said, it helps the stat serve a dual purpose while keeping in mind that tank DPS does matter to an extent. That way STR doesn't look like a waste of itemization or awkward as a main stat for PLD.

IF PLD isn't meant to be a DDing Tank STR should simply NOT be one of it's primary stats. They should be chosen from DEX(block acc/rate) VIT(hp pdt) MND(Cure potency, mdt)

We're both speaking on opinion. I think that if STR doesn't do enough for PLD then it needs to be changes in a way that it does more for a PLD and only a PLD. If it has to come down to stat scaling per individual class rather than a blanket rule that applies to everyone, I am fine with that because I know it'll most likely get the job done.

When you choose a Paladin, you Sacrifice a greater amount of DD, but this is supposedly compensated for the Paladin having healing abilities. Because (if we are to suppose the two jobs possess a similar ability to mitigate damage), the group as a whole is still taking slightly less damage overall, the exact same proportion of healing potential is wasted again. The healing abilities of the Paladin should allow one of the healers to take the role as a DD.

Don't go down that road, please. Healing has and should always be secondary in the case of PLD. The closer it is to flavor, the better. As such, the healing should always be weaker and fall into the "nice to have" category. Remember that the job is a knight in shining armor, not half tank half healer.

[Enfarious]

According to FFXI. I'm trying to be a little more generalized when looking at stats. Though yes, Warriors and Paladins in WoW had shield block rating and chance of block boosted by strength. As I said, it helps the stat serve a dual purpose while keeping in mind that tank DPS does matter to an extent. That way STR doesn't look like a waste of itemization or awkward as a main stat for PLD.
We're both speaking on opinion. I think that if STR doesn't do enough for PLD then it needs to be changes in a way that it does more for a PLD and only a PLD. If it has to come down to stat scaling per individual class rather than a blanket rule that applies to everyone, I am fine with that because I know it'll most likely get the job done.
Don't go down that road, please. Healing has and should always be secondary in the case of PLD. The closer it is to flavor, the better. As such, the healing should always be weaker and fall into the "nice to have" category. Remember that the job is a knight in shining armor, not half tank half healer.

I wasn't drawing from XI I was looking at it from a system of all classes/jobs benefit from stats in the same way. Why would one person being physically strong have a better parry rate than someone else who is equally strong? Stats help separate roles and create clear distinctions, A mage since both can use shields shouldn't get cnj mnd adds block rate, thm int adds block rate, while gla str adds block rate. The flip side of that would be lnc acc is based on str, pld hp is based on str, war def is based on str. Neither of those are incredibly sensible imo of course.

That last /quote isn't mine, you should probably give credit to the original author rather than leaving it to seem like mine, I didn't see where it came from but it's not horribly wrong at any rate.

[Duelle]

I wasn't drawing from XI I was looking at it from a system of all classes/jobs benefit from stats in the same way.

It work work. Blanket systems that affect everyone will always have one or two classes that don't exactly fit. Hence why I said, PLD should have a unique benefit from STR so that STR as one of its main stats makes sense.

When paladin's start being both good tanks, and good healers, I will take what I said back, but until then, both classes should only get to do one thing well.

I'll be more eager to ask for Holy Swordskills before asking for healing buffs for PLD. I will not see another knight in shining armor get upstaged by its heals.