Quick thought with paladin and 1.22b

[Sasagawa]

I think you're missinformed.

Vitality
•Damage taken
•Enhancement Magic Potency
•Maximum HP
•Damage dealt by marauder arms

Mind
•Healing Magic Potency
•Magic Accuracy
•Damage dealt by gladiator, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms

Piety
• Magic Evasion
•Enfeebling Magic Potency
•Maximum MP
•Damage dealt by archer, lancer, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/32606

Gonna try a Vit Pie build and just use some block rate materia and block rate shield

I forgot all about PIE >< :P

[Eliseus]

I'll agree that STR is out of place but MND makes sense. Mind affects healing magic potency which is a part of what Paladin does, heals itself and others. Also let's not forget that Mind also affects the Flat blade combo which is one of Paladin's enmity generators. I think VIT/MND makes more sense. DEX may affect block rate but I don't know by how much and if it's even worth it to stack. I would stack block rate gear or use a higher block rate shield.

Sadly I play a tank class to to take less dmg, not take more and heal itself. Although PLD has the ability to heal itself it still is the WHM's job to keep it alive. I also think given what dex does, not only gives me a higher chance to block but increases my acc, I just feel it > the benefits that MND can give towards healing and enmity? You really shouldn't have an enmity problem if you are playing it right anyways.

[Sasagawa]

Hmm thinking about it investing in PIE in stat allocation may not be a bad idea

We can gain nearly all other stats from equipment and fairly standard equips at that, so a little boost im Magic evasion for a drop in mind or dex may actually be well worth it !

Im gonna try it anyways :P

[Wincy]

A good chunk of a tank's threat/aggro/hate/enmity comes from the damage they deal.

Yea no I understand the concept, I just think it sucks. Maybe WAR should be that way, but my vision of a PLD generates Enmity from skills, not DPS. PLD is simply not supposed to have high DPS in my mind.

Although, pretty sure SE agrees with you.

[Enfarious]

I've been told stats can be, and maybe should be stacked to 350 for primary stat and 310 for secendary stat. I don't see any paladin getting there with STR and MND while keeping enough vitality and dexterity to be a decent tank. It can very realistically be done for a warrior tank though.

They can't it's why WAR is so much better at the jjob, gla/pld ends up either gimping it's DPS in favor of being a better turtle (vit mnd build), which in turn hurts it's enmity generation and block rate, or tries for the DPS method (str mnd) and hurts acc block and dmg reduction, or goes for block acc dmg reduction (dex vit) or they go for the all arounder (equal parts to balance every stat) and gimp everything.
SE kinda dicked gla/pld over w/ the str mnd for dmg instead of dex vit, or str dex(this would be awesome high block rate, acc and reasonable dmg it'd be like they ungimpled the class/job), or even vit pie for the purely defensive nature of them, but 2 stats where 1 helps by about 1hp healed/3mnd at cap ~100 extra hp healed, that's < 1 hit not that huge a deal but over time it does add up I suppose, and the other that helps solely dmg is like intentional gimping, don't know why they did it.

I think you're missinformed.

Vitality
•Damage taken
•Enhancement Magic Potency
•Maximum HP
•Damage dealt by marauder arms

Mind
•Healing Magic Potency <<< is 1/2 of why everyone goes mind
•Magic Accuracy
•Damage dealt by gladiator <<< is the other 1/2, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms

Piety
• Magic Evasion <<< this would make sense though
•Enfeebling Magic Potency
•Maximum MP
•Damage dealt by archer, lancer, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/32606

I think the other reason for mnd is that everyone remembers it affecting m.def and anticipates that returning, which would make a mnd + (dex or pie) build, and gods willing the "new" base dmg stats(devs look at that) just pimp.
I like many others I'm sure didn't even consider a Pie build, I may go respec, I'm gonna use all my stones respeccing gla/pld cause the rest of the jobs make sense already.

[Duelle]

Yea no I understand the concept, I just think it sucks. Maybe WAR should be that way, but my vision of a PLD generates Enmity from skills, not DPS. PLD is simply not supposed to have high DPS in my mind.

Although, pretty sure SE agrees with you.

They may agree with me, but their itemization doesn't seem to be working as it should.

Ideally, we could tier stats into categories first.

Primary Stats: STR, VIT, DEX, AGI, INT, MND, PIE
Secondary Stats: +Attack, +Accuracy, +Magic Accuracy, +Magic Potency, +Block Chance, +Block Value, +Evasion, +HP, +MP

Assuming you design gear for PLD, you can go one of several routes.

1) Design the gear to have one of the two "main" PLD stats and a tank stat, and then secondary stats to further help.

Examples:

Duelle's Breastplate of Taruness
+30 STR +45 VIT
+20 Accuracy +17 Block Rating

Duelle's Gauntlets of Taruness
+25 MND +30 DEX
+40 Block Value +70 HP

2) Alter the "main" stats in a way that they account for all the vital aspects of the tank class in question, then design the gear around it.

Patch Notes:
Paladin
- STR now also increases shield block chance, shield block rating, weapon damage.
- MND now also increases defense, evasion, weapon accuracy, and increases HP.

Example:

Duelle's Breastplate of Taruness
+40 STR +65 MND

3) Focus on the "main" stats, and use secondary stats to compensate.

Example:

Duelle's Breastplate of Taruness
+30 STR +25 MND
+200 HP +75 Accuracy

-------

There's probably several other approaches I haven't touched, including the one I know everyone here would oppose for the sake of continuing to hate on games like WoW, which would be make STR and VIT the main stats on all tank gear and then have the classes individually scale from those stats in their own way (STR counting towards shield block rating for warriors, as opposed to death knights whose parry rating scaled from STR, for example).

The bottom line is that itemization may not be exactly helping PLD's case, and IMO that would need to change.

[Enfarious]

...
There's probably several other approaches I haven't touched, including the one I know everyone here would oppose for the sake of continuing to hate on games like WoW, which would be make STR and VIT the main stats on all tank gear and then have the classes individually scale from those stats in their own way (STR counting towards shield block rating for warriors, as opposed to death knights whose parry rating scaled from STR, for example).

The bottom line is that itemization may not be exactly helping PLD's case, and IMO that would need to change.

Sorry but avoiding wall of text.

There are a few others, but at the end of the day it all boils down to about the same thing, GLA/PLD is working off of the wrong stats.
STR is a DMG stat, how strong I am doesn't help me get my shield in the way of that sword, it doesn't help me dodge the next attack and it doesn't help me get my weapon up into the path of the next attack headed my way. It does determine how large a shield I can carry effectively, since a larger shield covers more of me it stands to reason that it'd be easier to block with, it doesn't have to move as far or as accurately, than say a buckler which I'd have to move pretty precisely to make sure that it ate the brunt of the next attack instead of my arm, that's a dex/agi thing.
VIT(endurance) is the ability to withstand things typically of a physically exhausting nature. This is a very passive stat having it affect things like HP and physical dmg reduction make sense.
DEX is mostly covered in my rant on STR but it also works toward getting a weapon precisely positioned when you attack so that accuracy thing.
INT(IQ) gets into the somewhat invisible and arbitrary things, harder to measure but the use stands to reason, it takes brain power to cast a spell more means brain more effect, I think PIE was a mistake in it's present conception.
MND(a function of IQ) working in tandem with INT like STR<>VIT only for magic
PIE ok this is the brainy equiv to DEX, it was a poor choice of names since it implies holiness and devotion to god/gods, would imply that it's a WHM base stat and that WHM is based on devotion/holiness/god/gods/light magic, were this the case it would also affect cure potency but MND already does this, but they've obviously gone and made it a Druid instead of a WHM, they need to rename WHM or PIE lol

With that all said and out of the way:
IF PLD isn't meant to be a DDing Tank STR should simply NOT be one of it's primary stats. They should be chosen from DEX(block acc/rate) VIT(hp pdt) MND(Cure potency, mdt)

That's it, all that preamble for that little bit.

Edit: I failed in avoiding the wall, but it's not as bad as it could have been.

[Roaran]

With the current battle team's approach, Paladin will never be as good as Warrior.

Think about it. What do you need from a tank? Just enough damage mitigation to allow 1-2 healers to keep you alive as well as the rest of the group. Nothing more is necessary, and anything less is unacceptable.

Warrior and Paladin both fulfill those conditions. However, because no more is necessary for a tanking role, improving each classes ability to tank does not make them a more valuable party member. And it is what makes them a valuable party member that gets them in the party, not how well they tank.

The difference between Warrior and Paladin, is their sub-roles. Warrior (when tanking) subs as a DD, while Paladin subs as a healer (and DD to a degree as well).

Because the benefits of Warrior's sub role far outweigh those of the Paladin, it becomes obvious that bringing a Warrior is superior. It wouldn't matter if the Paladin took next to zero damage, or had a million health. Your party will still need healers for the rest of the group, and as long as the same number of healers can keep both tanks alive, they are essentially interchangeable ( as far as their primary tanking role is concerned).

Thus, the only rational way to proceed is in balancing their tanking roles, getting them roughly equal, while giving each class separate and distinct sub roles.

Now, Imagine that every encounter until now did not require tanks. The optimal group would be the Maximum amount of DD, with just enough healing to get by. If you were suddenly to introduce tanks into the game, you would have to choose between Paladin and Warrior.

When you choose a Warrior, you only sacrifice some DD, and because, with the addition of a tank, the group is taking slighly less damage overall and some of your healing potential is wasted (The healers you had were able to heal without a tank, with the addition of a tank, they have an easier job and no longer need to perform as well).

When you choose a Paladin, you Sacrifice a greater amount of DD, but this is supposedly compensated for the Paladin having healing abilities. Because (if we are to suppose the two jobs possess a similar ability to mitigate damage), the group as a whole is still taking slightly less damage overall, the exact same proportion of healing potential is wasted again. The healing abilities of the Paladin should allow one of the healers to take the role as a DD.

To summarize, if you really want to balance these classes, you must focus more on their sub roles, rather than their actual tanking abilities. As tanks, the Paladin and Warrior should be equitable in mitigation and survivability for both physical and magical damage. However, the choice should lie in which sub role fits your group more. The Paladin being part tank and part healer, should allow the group to approach encounters with less dedicated healers than a group using a Warrior tank. The Warrior being part tank and part DD should be able to deal enough damage to justify the extra healing necessary from not using a Paladin.

[Wincy]

Sorry but avoiding wall of text.

There are a few others, but at the end of the day it all boils down to about the same thing, GLA/PLD is working off of the wrong stats.
STR is a DMG stat, how strong I am doesn't help me get my shield in the way of that sword, it doesn't help me dodge the next attack and it doesn't help me get my weapon up into the path of the next attack headed my way. It does determine how large a shield I can carry effectively, since a larger shield covers more of me it stands to reason that it'd be easier to block with, it doesn't have to move as far or as accurately, than say a buckler which I'd have to move pretty precisely to make sure that it ate the brunt of the next attack instead of my arm, that's a dex/agi thing.
VIT(endurance) is the ability to withstand things typically of a physically exhausting nature. This is a very passive stat having it affect things like HP and physical dmg reduction make sense.
DEX is mostly covered in my rant on STR but it also works toward getting a weapon precisely positioned when you attack so that accuracy thing.
INT(IQ) gets into the somewhat invisible and arbitrary things, harder to measure but the use stands to reason, it takes brain power to cast a spell more means brain more effect, I think PIE was a mistake in it's present conception.
MND(a function of IQ) working in tandem with INT like STR<>VIT only for magic
PIE ok this is the brainy equiv to DEX, it was a poor choice of names since it implies holiness and devotion to god/gods, would imply that it's a WHM base stat and that WHM is based on devotion/holiness/god/gods/light magic, were this the case it would also affect cure potency but MND already does this, but they've obviously gone and made it a Druid instead of a WHM, they need to rename WHM or PIE lol

With that all said and out of the way:
IF PLD isn't meant to be a DDing Tank STR should simply NOT be one of it's primary stats. They should be chosen from DEX(block acc/rate) VIT(hp pdt) MND(Cure potency, mdt)

That's it, all that preamble for that little bit.

Edit: I failed in avoiding the wall, but it's not as bad as it could have been.

With the current battle team's approach, Paladin will never be as good as Warrior.

Think about it. What do you need from a tank? Just enough damage mitigation to allow 1-2 healers to keep you alive as well as the rest of the group. Nothing more is necessary, and anything less is unacceptable.

Warrior and Paladin both fulfill those conditions. However, because no more is necessary for a tanking role, improving each classes ability to tank does not make them a more valuable party member. And it is what makes them a valuable party member that gets them in the party, not how well they tank.

The difference between Warrior and Paladin, is their sub-roles. Warrior (when tanking) subs as a DD, while Paladin subs as a healer (and DD to a degree as well).

Because the benefits of Warrior's sub role far outweigh those of the Paladin, it becomes obvious that bringing a Warrior is superior. It wouldn't matter if the Paladin took next to zero damage, or had a million health. Your party will still need healers for the rest of the group, and as long as the same number of healers can keep both tanks alive, they are essentially interchangeable ( as far as their primary tanking role is concerned).

Thus, the only rational way to proceed is in balancing their tanking roles, getting them roughly equal, while giving each class separate and distinct sub roles.

Now, Imagine that every encounter until now did not require tanks. The optimal group would be the Maximum amount of DD, with just enough healing to get by. If you were suddenly to introduce tanks into the game, you would have to choose between Paladin and Warrior.

When you choose a Warrior, you only sacrifice some DD, and because, with the addition of a tank, the group is taking slighly less damage overall and some of your healing potential is wasted (The healers you had were able to heal without a tank, with the addition of a tank, they have an easier job and no longer need to perform as well).

When you choose a Paladin, you Sacrifice a greater amount of DD, but this is supposedly compensated for the Paladin having healing abilities. Because (if we are to suppose the two jobs possess a similar ability to mitigate damage), the group as a whole is still taking slightly less damage overall, the exact same proportion of healing potential is wasted again. The healing abilities of the Paladin should allow one of the healers to take the role as a DD.

To summarize, if you really want to balance these classes, you must focus more on their sub roles, rather than their actual tanking abilities. As tanks, the Paladin and Warrior should be equitable in mitigation and survivability for both physical and magical damage. However, the choice should lie in which sub role fits your group more. The Paladin being part tank and part healer, should allow the group to approach encounters with less dedicated healers than a group using a Warrior tank. The Warrior being part tank and part DD should be able to deal enough damage to justify the extra healing necessary from not using a Paladin.

Sorry I don't have a lot to add, just want to say I agree with both of these posts.

I don't want my PLD to focus on DD; I do, however, like the idea of being an effective supplemental healer and potentially negating the need for an extra WHM to tag along.

This, of course, has been discussed to death, but again I wish to affirm my agreement with the sentiment. :P

[Enfarious]

Think the answer becomes, if PLD can successfully mitigate large amounts of damage, large enough that they can heal others with abils like divine succor, and the returned HP to themselves keeps them standing the need for a full time whm goes away, you bring one, but for "oh shit" moments and otherwise they act as a DD, now your party is effectively:
PLD(Tank and Heals and very small DD) WHM(DD backup Heals) BRD(Mages Ballad DD backup heals) DD DD DD DD DD that's the potential for 7 count em 7 functional DDs and a PLD that spits out a bit of dmg too.
vs.
WAR(Tank lowmid-DD) WHM(FT Heals and Support) BRD(Support, Heals, DD) DD DD DD DD DD

In the first you can up your pts DPS over the second cause the WHM and BRD both can focus on DD while just catching the "Oh shit" heals. The problem is PLD just can't achieve the kind of mitigation that this requires, if it could, and by my thinking it really should be able to after all that's what PLD(knights in heavy armor, tanks in modern war) do, they eat dmg and stay up so the rest of the party(squad, regiment, cadre) can kill more effectively. Super Tanks shouldn't need 2 engineers patching them up FT in every battle, just 1 mostly just after the battle is over can keep them running, and neither should PLD except in those "Oh shit" moments. If it could though PLD would be the preferred tank for 1 on 1 encounters while still leaving riot encounters to a tank aka WAR that will always out DD it, and be able to keep hate on the crowds, in bosses w/ lots of adds a PLD hangs onto the main boss, WAR grabs all the adds. Fights/Raids everything finds balance, a PLDs dual role becomes useful a WAR can still shine, and only MNK and DRG are left in the cold since they don't stand above any other job in anyway ...

Really 2 jobs that seve 0 secondary role, and can be out DDd or at least matched by almost all the other jobs, why does noone feel bad for them?