How would you *fix* battle content?

[Shurrikhan]

Making the trinity "matter" is pretty damn vague, tbh.

It's not because I've explained it a number of times recently when I've mentioned it.

Cool, but you're not the only one who's mentioned it, nor are you required reading on the subject, let alone likely to enforce your particular take on what the phrase should mean among anyone else using said phrase. Which is why I said it's worth minding what details follow that ultimately fairly vague heading.

Also, any MMORPG developer should understand the concept of the holy trinity otherwise they shouldn't be in that position.

No part of my post says that developers needn't understand the concept. I'm merely pointing out that virtually every official forum poster and their grandmother seems to have critically different views of what "making the trinity matter" should entail. It seems a good banner to wave about for unanimous community action... only until it sees an ounce of detail. As such, it's important to start discussing those details early on, rather than oversimplifying the matter.

The only "harm" [removing anything that's not purely "Tankish" from tanks, "Healish" from Healers, and "DPS-ish" from DPS"] can cause is to make it harder for players to survive without cooperation from others ie. so a Warrior can't solo everything.

That's not remotely the case. It would involve, at minimum the removal of many of those interdependencies you seem to like and further reduce the potential distinctions between jobs of the same role.

What happens when "self-healing" is too "healish" for a tank while %DR is too "tankish" for a healer? Voila, now tanks have only barriers and %DRs available to them, nothing that could engage with threat of overcapping health when working around and with healers' heals, and heals can only produce potency barriers for mitigation rather than ever having max eHP increases scale synergetically with their target's existing eHP, incoming damage, or outgoing heals to the mitigated target.

That's fine but another way is things like how we were able to apply mits directly to the tank in Stormblood. I achieve the same thing now by, say, using Addle to reduce the effect of a tank buster on a novice tank.

Which is exactly the kind of thing whose removal I've heard suggested dozens of times over the last few years as an "obvious" course of "making the trinity matter".

The point is that we need to rely on eachother and affect eachother and by our teamwork of lending eachother buffs, resources and esunas, we win together.

I don't disagree. I like that interdependence. But that interdependence can be a whole lot more varied and allow for far more job flavor when that trinity isn't narrowly defined, yet narrow constraints of what it means to be a tank (essentially, nothing that could "step on the toes" of DPS or healers, even in terms of gameplay instead of capacity focus or holistically compared features), healer, or DPS is exactly what I see requested a good third of the time I see people asking for a "trinity that matters". I can't therefore agree with the request until seeing what one means by it.

To take Kiru's case as example, I have to disagree with a good half of what changes [rather than mere additions] are concrete enough to imagine out.

I want to maximize the available means of engagement for each role even while having the focuses of their responsibilities feel different. To me, balancing tanks only by reducing their skill expression would do as much gameplay harm as good, and I don't particularly care to make the minimum-maximum ilvl gap even larger as that means even more swing from decent to (now hyper-)trivial and less Savage accessibility and therefore, in effect, less worthwhile content per patch cycle.

[Valence]

I'd adapt the pvp paradigm to pve but that'd be like, doing a whole new game at this point.
Else I'd go back to the HW pve paradigm. Maybe it's more reasonable, but on the other hand still not gonna happen considering the amount of changes the system has gone through and the total of things that would need to be rebuilt from the rubble.

[Uzephi]

Else I'd go back to the HW pve paradigm.

I wouldn't mind having to manage mana, again as a healer. Mana management has been a joke since Shb.

[Supersnow845]

first it started with complaining about not being able to DPS then it turned to rage about not having a diverse kit, now healers are blaming other roles do you really not see the absurdity? this absolutely ludicrous lol its batshite insane when you start blaming other people an other roles/jobs you've lost the plot an you've demoralized what you were arguing for from the beginning an now people will not take this seriously cause people acting like this are pushing them away an those people would of supported your cause but by all means keep acting a fool let us know when that turns into results we'll be waiting to hear back from ya

Tanks- MY ROLE IS CARRIER BABY DONT LIKE IT LEAVE

healers- can we please be allowed to do our role

Tanks- SEE THIS INSANE NONSENSICAL ARGUMENT IS WHY NOBODY LIKES YOU

[Shurrikhan]

first it started with complaining about not being able to DPS then it turned to rage about not having a diverse kit, now healers are blaming other roles do you really not see the absurdity? this absolutely ludicrous lol its batshite insane when you start blaming other people an other roles/jobs you've lost the plot an you've demoralized what you were arguing for from the beginning an now people will not take this seriously cause people acting like this are pushing them away an those people would of supported your cause but by all means keep acting a fool let us know when that turns into results we'll be waiting to hear back from ya

While I'm all for keeping gameplay and just increasing the need to use it instead, tanks are objectively the most powerful role in the game, and by quite a bit. Enough so that if you removed half of their passive mitigation* and only nerfed what tankbusters would otherwise one-shot through the same active mitigation, tanks would still be fully fine despite also making their CDs feel far, far more substantial/required.

* Fwiw: Passive Mitigation is, btw, the majority of our mitigation unless stacking the first 4s of a %DR-heavy 25s or our 2-minute with something else.

The short of it is both that tanks probably need to be squishier outside of CDs AND we need more total party damage intake (AND healers should also have more interesting downtime activities).

[ShadowyZero]

healers- can we please be allowed to do our role

Yoshida and devs quite literally allowed you to do said role but of course healers still complained lmao so which is it? do you want to play the game of healing or don't you? or do you just want to continue to be mad for the sake of being mad?

the playerbase is on the side of healers saying they want a more robust kit with more dps between heal casts and the tanks are bored of not getting a real challenge that forces them to even use their mitigation often.

but do you hear the tanks asking for healers to get butchered or neutered in their job kits? if so show me where cause i've never seen an instance of that anywhere on these forums lol an thats why people can't take these arguments seriously an thats why the devs ignore the healer role. healer mains need to screw their heads back on straight an agree on what exactly they really want not demonize other jobs for what they DONT have cause thats not only being toxic but also childish.

[Supersnow845]

Yoshida and devs quite literally allowed you to do said role but of course healers still complained lmao so which is it? do you want to play the game of healing or don't you? or do you just want to continue to be mad for the sake of being mad?

the playerbase is on the side of healers saying they want a more robust kit with more dps between heal casts and the tanks are bored of not getting a real challenge that forces them to even use their mitigation often.

but do you hear the tanks asking for healers to get butchered or neutered in their job kits? if so show me where cause i've never seen an instance of that anywhere on these forums lol an thats why people can't take these arguments seriously an thats why the devs ignore the healer role. healer mains need to screw their heads back on straight an agree on what exactly they really want not demonize other jobs for what they DONT have cause thats not only being toxic but also childish.

“Do you see tanks asking healers to be butchered”

I mean the whole “what if you aren’t playing perfect and die, why should I be beholden to any other party member” mantra is very very common amongst tank mains. Like the person a few pages ago who said “what if WAR didn’t have healing, then holmgang has a downside” as if holmgang’s downside is not literally meant to be countered by healers. But no they’d rather be self sufficient at the healers expense

Plus it’s not like healers can have literally any more ripped out of thier kit, you don’t hear direct “I want you to stop having this” from tanks because healers barely encroach on the tank role meanwhile tanks directly do healer roles and healers have nothing left. Genuinely what could healers lose that would appreciably improve tank gameplay……….maybe some mitigation, meanwhile tanks could lose a lot that would improve healer gameplay (even though that’s not the only solution to healer OR tank gameplay)

If tanks want more interesting things to do with their mitigation then actually ask for interesting tank mechanics, not encroach on the healer role and call it tank mechanics

[Valence]

do you want to play the game of healing or don't you?

How can healers play 'the game of healing' when there is no healing to be done?

[BigCheez]

[Removed for character limit]

tl;dr - I think tanks and healers all need to be nerfed across the board and the damage in casual content needs to be turned up at least a little.

WAR having self-healing isn't a problem in and of itself but it should have weaknesses elsewhere to offset the strength of that part of its toolkit. It's similar to a Blood DK in WoW, the primary difference being that a DK has less mitigation than its fellow tanks. Blood DK is legitimately immortal until the spike damage becomes too much and then it becomes susceptible to being one-shot.

If I was designing changes to tanks and healers to make their gameplay more compelling, I would probably nerf different parts of all of their kits and allow them to be more specialised.

First of all, delete the tank mastery trait. The inherent 20% mit coupled with the higher tank HP pool makes it far too easy to survive without using your kit, simply by virtue of choosing a tank job. As for specific changes to jobs - nerf WAR's mitigation and let it excel at self-sustaining. Make PLD's block only apply to physical damage again, and remove the absurd amount of self-healing that it has baked into its damage rotation now. Make DRK better at mitigating magic damage again. I would have preferred to see Dark Mind become a 40% magic damage mit rather than another boring 20% magic, 10% physical mit. Make GNB a bit squishier and let it do more damage than the other tanks. GNB could get something similar to a Brewmaster Monk that allows it to turn spike damage taken into damage over time, to make it more manageable to heal.

As for healers, I would probably nerf some of their tools so that you need to use multiple buttons to deal with instances of damage. Incoming damage in casual content just needs to be turned up a fair bit, too. The fact that WHM can just about make it through dungeons using only Benediction, Asylum and Assize is ridiculous.

I don't think casual content needs to be particularly hard but it needs to at least ask the bare minimum of players, otherwise the combat system is little more than wasted potential in the majority of the game.

[Connor]

Ok am I like, playing a different game to everyone else or something? Tank adjustments for role parity wouldn’t actually affect their literal gameplay itself, would it? Like, at all? It’s literally just a case of numerical values.