Job feedback [pre-8.0 megathread]

[ty_taurus]

But what does \\'more DPS\\' actually mean? It isn\\'t going to do more damage than other healers, so it just means more DPS options than other healers, which it did get. No other healer has a Phlegma equivalent, or a Toxicon equivalent, or even a Pneuma equivalent. With DT it then got Psyche, the closest thing to this is Assize and Eukrasian Dyskrasia, the only healer with an on demand AoE DoT.

No Phlegma equivalent? White Mage has Assize and Misery. Scholar has Energy Drain and Ruin II which is significantly more versatile than Toxikon as well. Astrologian had an entire damage buffing system which has since been diminished in scale, but is still at least partially present. Also Lord of Crowns. And even if that wasn’t the case, the issue that we have been asking for is gameplay that isn’t almost entirely “spam glare/broil/malefic.”

“Spam Dosis, except 1 less time per 40 seconds” was not the answer. It’s not about doing more damage, it’s about having a job that actually has gameplay and doesn’t feel like a level 1 job for the majority of most encounters.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I am bias, so feel free to fact check my statements and/or take my perspective with a grain of salt, but during several interviews with Yoshi P about Sage before Endwalker, he stated specifically that Sage was designed based on feedback received in Shadowbringers that some players wanted more DPS on healers. I’ll give you an example: Zelpa’s Q&A with Yoshi P.

I too am biased, at least when I wrote that reply, so I don't think I'm in right place to fact check that statement. Nevertheless, I think the one point we both agreed is having more in-depth options to fill our time when we're not healing are something to be sought for - sorely that is.

I personally don't quite care who gets what at this point. I just want four of them to feel different. My proposal in the past has been pretty low of a bar to clear: rollback to ShB (because that's when I started and 3 healers still had some distinct difference that make me notice), then start from there. Ideally it would be "rollback to StB, keep ShB QoLs, then start from there" sprinkled with plethora other suggested changes that we often saw in healer subforum. But apparently that's been a tough ask for this multi-billion dollar company...

One day maybe I'll get slapped with the "Please understand the cost..."-reasoning. I can feel it...

[Maltothoris]

Also not to mention Eukrasian dyskrasia has been a fairly big loss ever since they buffed Euk Dosis where it equals 2 targets that get hit with dyskrasia so when tagging mobs, it's better to use e. dosis over e dyskrasia and most certainly e. dosis is certainly going to get buffed again in either 7.4 or 7.5 if the last patch is the one that gets the ultimate.

[Brandr]

These people know nothing.
Mess with other classes, leave my PLD my beloved alone!
I love my invincible slow DPS

[Mikey_R]

No Phlegma equivalent? White Mage has Assize and Misery. Scholar has Energy Drain and Ruin II which is significantly more versatile than Toxikon as well. Astrologian had an entire damage buffing system which has since been diminished in scale, but is still at least partially present. Also Lord of Crowns. And even if that wasn’t the case, the issue that we have been asking for is gameplay that isn’t almost entirely “spam glare/broil/malefic.”

“Spam Dosis, except 1 less time per 40 seconds” was not the answer. It’s not about doing more damage, it’s about having a job that actually has gameplay and doesn’t feel like a level 1 job for the majority of most encounters.

Phlegma being a GCD that is on a 40 second cooldown that can stack up to 2 and does AoE damage cantered around the target that you have to be close to the enemy to use is equivalent to Assize that is an oGCD on a 40 second timer, that cannot stack and as well as dealing AoE damage around the user, also heals and restores WHM's MP, or Afflatus Misery that that is only able to be used every minute, as long as you spend the Lilies on potentially useless heals that can effectively be said have a cooldown of 20 seconds that stacks up to 3.

Oh, you want to go after Toxicon? The one where you have to use a GCDto apply a shield to get a stack for the resource to use it, as opposed to Energy Drain that you use to dump any remaining Aetherflow before Aetherflow comes off of cooldown or Ruin 2 that is a DPS loss for that GCD (Toxicon, fight dependant, might not be) and as you said, is far more flexible.

AST cards aren't even in the same ball park and is definitely not what you meant when you said DPS healer and Lord of Crowns being used every 2 minutes based on AST's Draw? What are you even comparing this to? The closest Sage would have is Psyche and that is a 60 second cast that isn't locked behind something else.

You have quite literally proven the point I made in that post in that you aren't looking for differences. You have concentrated on what you think makes them the same and just rolled with it, and, in my opinion, failed at that. Bear in mind, I haven't said there shouldn't be more work, I just disagree with the premise that they are the same and does provide options for the Sage.

[smitten_miquitten]

Some of the most fun I have playing Red Mage comes from clutch situations, like when I need to chain rez or when there's a big hit coming and I've got both Addle and Magic Barrier up to help (I love that the latter buffs healing too!).

With things like Phantom Jobs, I love the synergy buff and debuff spells have with Dualcast.

Back when Manashift was a thing, I liked balancing how much mp I expected to need against how often I thought I could realistically share it with the Healers.

I say all of that to say that I'd love more party support tools. Not even necessarily ones that need to get a lot of use, just more options to use. Some could be ogcd, but it'd be neat if others needed Dualcast as well. I like the feeling Red Mage can have where you're juggling priorities and not all of them are necessarily "make number go big". It's the top priority sure, but you can have more going on depending on the situation and that's pretty fun. Like the general expectation would still be "be greedy, do big dps" but skill expression could become how well you can do that while also supporting your team in niche scenarios you have a solution for.

I see FF11's Red Mage and the buffs/debuffs they get and while the battle systems are pretty different between games, it definitely looks fun and I think we could have just a tiny bit more of that over here.

[Daralii]

I see FF11's Red Mage and the buffs/debuffs they get and while the battle systems are pretty different between games, it definitely looks fun and I think we could have just a tiny bit more of that over here.

Big parts of XI RDM were more akin to the older FFs, being a jack of all trades with white magic, black magic, buffs, debuffs, and enspells to enchant their weapons. XIV's role system being as rigid as it is, fights functioning as they do, and elements not existing as a gameplay mechanic means that it simply isn't compatible beyond the general themes.

[ty_taurus]

You have quite literally proven the point I made in that post in that you aren't looking for differences. You have concentrated on what you think makes them the same and just rolled with it, and, in my opinion, failed at that. Bear in mind, I haven't said there shouldn't be more work, I just disagree with the premise that they are the same and does provide options for the Sage.

In your previous post, you implied that Sage's goal of being more DPS oriented is inherently successful because no other healer had an equivalent to Phlegma, Toxikon, or Pneuma. Saying that tools like Assize, Energy Drain, or Lord of Crowns are "equivalent" is slightly misleading based on what I'm equating them to, which I will expand on. I am not focused on equating their functionality. Rather, I am equating each healer's access to a variety of offensive tools in general--tools with a similar volume of usage. The problem that has been criticized for now 6 years is that so much of healer gameplay is completely dominated by just spamming Glare and waiting large swaths of time before you can do anything else. One 40 second GCD nuke does not magically resolve that issue, and both Toxikon and Pneuma fail far worse at alleviating the issue. Pneuma is not a DPS tool. It is a burst healing tool. Toxikon has horrible optimization, and you often get only 3 uses of it across an entire fight because GCD barriers are Sage's last desperate act of survival, not their primary method of healing.

What I need is active gameplay that keeps me cycling through a modest, yet interesting selection of spells that are always applicable no matter how simple or easy the content gets. What I don't need is a commercial break between every transient heartbeat of gameplay that reminds my brain that I'm actually supposed to be having fun, and not roleplaying as a laser hair removal technician getting Barbara's legs ready for swimsuit season.

[Supersnow845]

Phlegma being a GCD that is on a 40 second cooldown that can stack up to 2 and does AoE damage cantered around the target that you have to be close to the enemy to use is equivalent to Assize that is an oGCD on a 40 second timer, that cannot stack and as well as dealing AoE damage around the user, also heals and restores WHM's MP, or Afflatus Misery that that is only able to be used every minute, as long as you spend the Lilies on potentially useless heals that can effectively be said have a cooldown of 20 seconds that stacks up to 3.

Oh, you want to go after Toxicon? The one where you have to use a GCDto apply a shield to get a stack for the resource to use it, as opposed to Energy Drain that you use to dump any remaining Aetherflow before Aetherflow comes off of cooldown or Ruin 2 that is a DPS loss for that GCD (Toxicon, fight dependant, might not be) and as you said, is far more flexible.

AST cards aren't even in the same ball park and is definitely not what you meant when you said DPS healer and Lord of Crowns being used every 2 minutes based on AST's Draw? What are you even comparing this to? The closest Sage would have is Psyche and that is a 60 second cast that isn't locked behind something else.

You have quite literally proven the point I made in that post in that you aren't looking for differences. You have concentrated on what you think makes them the same and just rolled with it, and, in my opinion, failed at that. Bear in mind, I haven't said there shouldn't be more work, I just disagree with the premise that they are the same and does provide options for the Sage.

No you have you just proven the opposite point in that you looking for pointless tiny differences and amounting them to important differences as if they actually necessitate class difference

E dyskrasia is a loss in 99% of situations, it’s literally a dead button in the closest sense of the word.

Toxicon has its closest analogue in ruin 2

Phlegma has parallels in misery, star, ED and assize

Psyche has parallels in assize and lord

When it comes down to it all healers still spam 1 button, refresh their DOT and basically use their very limited oGCD damage options on CD then distinguish themselves by their healing kit…….which SGE also copied from SCH

If you are selling something as a “DPS healer” I’m expected PCT or RDM complexity, not “I have one more non interactive oGCD damage option than the class I ripped off” especially since SGE’s oGCD’s have zero interactivity and little optimisation pathway. SCH with energy drain alone or WHM with Lilys have infinitely more optimisation than “2 phlegma’s in the burst window psyche on CD”

[0blivion]

Alright, I will politely give my feedback.

Tanks:
Well, they're boring. I think WAR's braindead design is fun, but tbh they should just make everything hit harder to compensate for it and put the other tanks on an even playing field in terms of sustain. But then the people who unironically find DT dungeons hard already would riot.

So yeah.

WAR: Cut down on the heals or make them a tradeoff for DPS to bring back some of the energy that aggro combo vs dps combo had. Actually, bring aggro management back, lol.

DRK: It's honestly okay, Dark Arts sucked anyway. But it is just a glorified WAR clone. I think the defensive kit needs some work, tbh, to be made interesting. Same for the main combo. Make Darkside matter again?

PLD: I mean, it is less clunky now. That's nice. I still think we should remove Clemency for the game. Or better, make it an oGCD that shares its CD with a DPS skill. That'd be great. Combos remain boring but at least they're pretty now?

GNB: I mean, I'm sure GNB mains are more educated on this than me, but I had the impression it got dumbed down as well? Regardless, I think the defensive kit is okay at least.

Also, please put all invulns on the same unlock level, this is silly.

Healers:
Just need a complete rework. Or a safety reboot from the state pre-ShB. Seriously. In detail:

WHM: Was always rather simplistic. Won't get better any time soon unless we remove Cure I from the game (have Cure I upgrade into it) and give all healers a sensible DPS kit that also lets them heal from doing their rotation correctly.

SCH: Bane, Shadowflare, Miasma. That's a full sentence. Seriously, it's silly how hard this class was neutered. If button bloat is a concern, make Deployment Tactics work like PvP where it spreads dots OR shields.

AST: I think current AST is a step up from EW AST, but that ain't hard. It's honestly okay. But it also needs more dps going on. Like, a rotation, at all, that rewards you with free heals for not sucking at the game.

SGE: Man, Kardia was the right track but I s2g it'd be that much better if there was actually a DPS rotation to go with it. Also the fact that you have to mindlessly overheal to generate MP in a lot of content is silly. Maybe consider making MP generation also be awarded from doing your rotation correctly.

aaand I hit character limit