Revelations from Patch 7.2: Seekers of Eternity

[Cleretic]

What do you guys think about Calyx keeping real Sphene alive, faking her death, and putting her inside the Meso-Terminal of all places?
It's a weird thing to do when all he needs from her are her memories, right?

So while there might be a bit more to this that we don't know yet, there's three answers here that are probably working in tandem right now.

1. At the time she was put in stasis, Endless were still very much an experimental process (see also: Otis). In that context it makes complete sense to keep her in stasis as you perfect the process, so that you can keep going back to the source for every new attempt.

2. They almost definitely were actually planning to cure her sickness. So keeping her in stasis until they found a cure makes complete sense, and then you hit the tragic truth that they never figured it out, and might have stopped trying at some point; it took outsiders to solve it.

3. She is still the queen. Calyx might have his own priorities, but he likely does still have some level of duty, either on paper or internally as a person, to the queen and the crown, and he and likely the rest of Oblivion know she's still alive. Even disregarding the fact that thanks to Living Memory everyone who was in Oblivion was still around in some form until very recently, deciding to pull the plug on her would eat at you, you become 'the person who killed the queen' even if nobody else knows. And when it seems like her stasis chamber requires very little maintenance or power, you never really have to face that question.

So yeah, it makes complete sense to me that the plan started as 'we keep her in stasis for now', and then 'for now' gradually became 'for hundreds of years'.

[Thighland]

So while there might be a bit more to this that we don't know yet, there's three answers here that are probably working in tandem right now.

1. At the time she was put in stasis, Endless were still very much an experimental process (see also: Otis). In that context it makes complete sense to keep her in stasis as you perfect the process, so that you can keep going back to the source for every new attempt.

2. They almost definitely were actually planning to cure her sickness. So keeping her in stasis until they found a cure makes complete sense, and then you hit the tragic truth that they never figured it out, and might have stopped trying at some point; it took outsiders to solve it.

3. She is still the queen. Calyx might have his own priorities, but he likely does still have some level of duty, either on paper or internally as a person, to the queen and the crown, and he and likely the rest of Oblivion know she's still alive. Even disregarding the fact that thanks to Living Memory everyone who was in Oblivion was still around in some form until very recently, deciding to pull the plug on her would eat at you, you become 'the person who killed the queen' even if nobody else knows. And when it seems like her stasis chamber requires very little maintenance or power, you never really have to face that question.

So yeah, it makes complete sense to me that the plan started as 'we keep her in stasis for now', and then 'for now' gradually became 'for hundreds of years'.

You give Preservation's other members a lot of credit, even though it is safe to say that Calyx as an individual has been in complete control of Alexandria for hundreds of years. (Control he loaned out to Endless Sphene, for a mere experiment)
If what Simulant Sphene says represents Calyx' opinion of Sphene, he really doesn't think highly of her beyond her ability to control the masses. And he thinks even less of her people, treating them like lab rats. I don't recognize a sense of duty to his queen anywhere.
Could he have simply ignored Sphene's real body being frozen in the middle of the most important structure of "his" Everkeep? Possible, but it doesn't sit right with me.

But as you said, there might be more to this than we know. I just hope the writers don't forget about it.

[Cleretic]

You give Preservation's other members a lot of credit, even though it is safe to say that Calyx as an individual has been in complete control of Alexandria for hundreds of years. (Control he loaned out to Endless Sphene, for a mere experiment)
If what Simulant Sphene says represents Calyx' opinion of Sphene, he really doesn't think highly of her beyond her ability to control the masses. And he thinks even less of her people, treating them like lab rats. I don't recognize a sense of duty to his queen anywhere.
Could he have simply ignored Sphene's real body being frozen in the middle of the most important structure of "his" Everkeep? Possible, but it doesn't sit right with me.

I think you're looking at Preservation (which I did confuse with Oblivion! I blame Bethesda) and Calyx differently than I am, at least. You definitely seem to be looking at him as on some level actively malevolent, someone who would kill an innocent Sphene, more or less, because he can; after all, she's harmless and inert, and merely costs one extra room in the Meso Terminal. That she's useless, and you throw away things that are useless.

I'm looking at Preservation and Calyx as, while essentially antagonistic and evil by story requirement, above all else people with jobs and goals. Calyx has a plan, he has an outlook, and he has steps to achieve, and regardless of whether or not he's all that remains of Preservation or if he's just the head of an unnamed mass, he simply just had nothing to gain from shutting down Sphene's stasis and letting her die. Whether because of plans on the backburner, internal feelings about Real Sphene as the queen, or simply because it's more effort to make a move than it is to not, he just left her there and moved forward with his plans. That even if she is useless, sometimes you don't throw away useless things.

I'm honestly completely ignoring the chance that we'll learn more in the future here, simply because I don't know the future, I'm only speculating on what we have now. And with what we have now it almost boils down to a question of effort: if we accept Calyx's decisions to be the cold logic that he asserts them to be, which is more effort: killing her, or leaving her alive? And is the decision he made truly as driven by logic as he wants it to seem?

[Thighland]

I think you're looking at Preservation (which I did confuse with Oblivion! I blame Bethesda) and Calyx differently than I am, at least. You definitely seem to be looking at him as on some level actively malevolent, someone who would kill an innocent Sphene, more or less, because he can; after all, she's harmless and inert, and merely costs one extra room in the Meso Terminal. That she's useless, and you throw away things that are useless.

I'm looking at Preservation and Calyx as, while essentially antagonistic and evil by story requirement, above all else people with jobs and goals. Calyx has a plan, he has an outlook, and he has steps to achieve, and regardless of whether or not he's all that remains of Preservation or if he's just the head of an unnamed mass, he simply just had nothing to gain from shutting down Sphene's stasis and letting her die. Whether because of plans on the backburner, internal feelings about Real Sphene as the queen, or simply because it's more effort to make a move than it is to not, he just left her there and moved forward with his plans. That even if she is useless, sometimes you don't throw away useless things.

I'm honestly completely ignoring the chance that we'll learn more in the future here, simply because I don't know the future, I'm only speculating on what we have now. And with what we have now it almost boils down to a question of effort: if we accept Calyx's decisions to be the cold logic that he asserts them to be, which is more effort: killing her, or leaving her alive? And is the decision he made truly as driven by logic as he wants it to seem?

You raise a fair point about the possibility that Calyx may not be driven entirely by logic, and I am considering the possibility that he simply doesn't see real Sphene as a threat to his plans. (Although that will probably come back to bite his ass eventually)
Though the interesting thing is that every time something doesn't entirely add up about his plan, it involves Sphene somehow.

Like we can both agree that Calyx' ultimate goal is the key right now, right? Yet in 7.0, instead of looking for it himself, he tasked Endless Sphene to not only retrieve it, but also allowed her full control over it. And either due to being ignorant of or not very loyal to Calyx, Endless Sphene handed us the key personally after her defeat, even though she seemingly didn't have to. Now, if Calyx' goal is to have the key, then why would he leave it in the hands of an autonomous creation whose motivations don't align with his? He basically allowed us to have the key, which doesn't make sense.

Is that something that doesn't need explaining in the future?
It seems to me like Calyx either has an unreasonable obsession with Sphene (and pretends like he doesn't), or there is something special about her, beyond just being the Queen.

[Cleretic]

You raise a fair point about the possibility that Calyx may not be driven entirely by logic, and I am considering the possibility that he simply doesn't see real Sphene as a threat to his plans. (Although that will probably come back to bite his ass eventually)
Though the interesting thing is that every time something doesn't entirely add up about his plan, it involves Sphene somehow.

Like we can both agree that Calyx' ultimate goal is the key right now, right? Yet in 7.0, instead of looking for it himself, he tasked Endless Sphene to not only retrieve it, but also allowed her full control over it. And either due to being ignorant of or not very loyal to Calyx, Endless Sphene handed us the key personally after her defeat, even though she seemingly didn't have to. Now, if Calyx' goal is to have the key, then why would he leave it in the hands of an autonomous creation whose motivations don't align with his? He basically allowed us to have the key, which doesn't make sense.

Simple: he underestimated us. And has been underestimating us, constantly; Endless Sphene by all respects would've been just fine as a custodian for the key, until Wuk Lamat and ourselves turn up; until we turn up there's not really any problem at all with Endless Sphene as far as his purposes go. Once it's clear we're not exactly giving back the key voluntarily, he hits us with a lightning bolt powered by a whole city... and that doesn't work. Then he throws us into the Valia Pira test battery, and that doesn't work. Then he throws Zelenia at us, and THAT doesn't work.

I don't think he has an 'unreasonable obssession' with Sphene, so much as he recognizes that Sphene is the beloved Queen of Alexandria, and that itself has power; if Sphene asks someone in Alexandria to do something, they do it. I do still think there's probably a level of duty, but again, not to an unhealthy degree; Calyx's original goal was to solve the very illness that faced Sphene, so I doubt he ever did the thing that confirmably gave up on it. It's like the high-stakes version of never throwing away that guitar you kept meaning to learn.

[Thighland]

Simple: he underestimated us. And has been underestimating us, constantly; Endless Sphene by all respects would've been just fine as a custodian for the key, until Wuk Lamat and ourselves turn up; until we turn up there's not really any problem at all with Endless Sphene as far as his purposes go. Once it's clear we're not exactly giving back the key voluntarily, he hits us with a lightning bolt powered by a whole city... and that doesn't work. Then he throws us into the Valia Pira test battery, and that doesn't work. Then he throws Zelenia at us, and THAT doesn't work.

Underestimating us and our fighting strength is one thing, but he should have known that there was a possibility that Endless Sphene wouldn't do what he wants (she is his creation afterall), which is the actual main reason why we have the key, and he doesn't. But maybe the writers didn't think of that.

I don't think he has an 'unreasonable obssession' with Sphene, so much as he recognizes that Sphene is the beloved Queen of Alexandria, and that itself has power; if Sphene asks someone in Alexandria to do something, they do it. I do still think there's probably a level of duty, but again, not to an unhealthy degree; Calyx's original goal was to solve the very illness that faced Sphene, so I doubt he ever did the thing that confirmably gave up on it. It's like the high-stakes version of never throwing away that guitar you kept meaning to learn.

Using Sphene as a mere tool to keep the Alexandrians docile does make sense, but I feel like the incentive for that falls apart when you realize that the regulators enable Calyx to control the memories of the people at will, and by extension the people themselves, making the need for a figure like Sphene practically obsolete, at least after such a long time. And we know that he has no qualms about using the regulators in that way, not to mention killing his own people. Again, this could be a writing issue, but if it isn't, it seems pretty out of character for a seemingly pragmatic person like him.

Concerning the levin sickness, my personal impression is that he never really wanted to cure it, or if he did, he changed his mind a long time ago when he got the idea of taking mankind's evolution into his own hands.
Are Beq Lugg and Owen the only ones capable of figuring out how to cure a tempered soul? Was Calyx, an expert at handling souls and memories, really incapable of figuring it out after hundreds of years and with technology that, at the very least, rivals the Allagans? I don't buy it, but in the end there's nothing else to do than wait for confirmation I'm afraid.

(Excuse my constant arguing, I actually enjoy this discussion a lot)

[Cleretic]

Underestimating us and our fighting strength is one thing, but he should have known that there was a possibility that Endless Sphene wouldn't do what he wants (she is his creation afterall), which is the actual main reason why we have the key, and he doesn't. But maybe the writers didn't think of that.

I mean, she spent several centuries doing exactly what Calyx needed of her, and 7.2 showed us that Calyx is a 'learn from failures' kind of person more than he is a 'plan for all eventualities' person. Why throw her out if she's doing everything needed of her, and the event that she goes against him both hasn't happened yet and, as far as they know, very well might never happen? That just sounds like a whole lot of needless work to produce a perfect plan that you don't need, because the current one's already working just fine.

And similarly, why go through all the effort to use the regulators to manipulate people's memories to achieve a plan without Sphene, when 'get Sphene to ask someone to do something' has worked for hundreds of years? Hell, I'd argue that the existence of Oblivion and the largely-undiscussed people not using regulators shows that trying to change their approach is really not feasible; he actually can't control the memories of the entire population. However, both Oblivion and the non-regulator-using masses seem to like Sphene well enough, at least as far as they ever could like someone in her position, so why would you ever stop using her as the figurehead and risk escalating them into action? You call the idea of Calyx replacing Sphene 'pragmatic', but I actually think it'd be the mark of an irrational and paranoid actor to replace something that's worked perfectly for centuries simply because, in some unforeseen circumstances, it might backfire. Especially because there's absolutely no guarantee that your replacement plan works any better, and that the act of replacement itself could very well cause great issues.

I don't think it's that 'the writers didn't think of this' or anything: I think they absolutely did, and you're reading Calyx as a different sort of villain than he actually is. He's not the 'all according to keikaku' elaborate mastermind that calculated for every possibility that Quickthinx Allthoughts or Emet-Selch claimed to be. No, he might actually be scarier: he's a calculating, scientific mind that learns from mistakes and tries again. Endless Sphene eventually failed him, so he made a new Sphene that did; the lightning bolt didn't work, so he hit us harder the next time. Which has the potential to be genuinely terrifying as a villain, because as long as he himself can walk away from things, he's never 'failed'; he's just got more data for next time.