@Casuals , do you think the message has gotten through?

[Volgia]

Well given they've made a fairly big effort to make all of these as unengaging as humanly possible, under the guise of all-or-nothing, it's really not difficult to see why they may view themselves as being starved for content, when they've reduced everything to a pathetic husk. -- Granted, this isn't really exclusive to just casual players.

Like, compared many of the casual activities, e.g., crafting now, versus how it was when they actually cared about creating an engaging experience, the difference is night and day, how interactive it was, and what it expected from a player, it's night and day difference if you ask me. Crafting now? Bot infested, and when they try and insert something engaging, it still gets undermined by a half-baked job system for crafters -- and sorry, but yes some of these systems are incredibly boring.

What I find weirder is that people seem to have this idea that all casual players want a complete and utter unengaging experience, and that somehow activities like raiding existing can act as a sufficient enough justification.

What did they expect? Perhaps something that actually actively encouraged them to play the game, and interact with the game even on a fundamental and casual level... Rather than a game that essentially actively scorned them and pushed them away for it.

And you think that old crafting was less boring than it is now? You think something like the ARR and HW's grind were just more engaging? Cuz they weren't. The only thing they had going for them is that they weren't as accessible as they are now.

Square Enix pivoted hard to make the game incredibly more casual than it used to be, by rewarding you hard through no effort, they dissipated the sense of achievement you would get by doing anything in this game.
This makes it so you can't really play the game endlessly without feeling like it's pointless, unless you play a couple of hours a week, which is literally the definition of a casual player, which is exactly the kind of player CBU3 is doing content for.

They aren't doing massive amounts of content for hardcore players, if they were really pivoting towards them, the dungeons, alliance raids and OC would all be 1000% more punishing.

[Mawlzy]

And you think that old crafting was less boring than it is now? You think something like the ARR and HW's grind were just more engaging? Cuz they weren't. The only thing they had going for them is that they weren't as accessible as they are now.

Square Enix pivoted hard to make the game incredibly more casual than it used to be, by rewarding you hard through no effort, they dissipated the sense of achievement you would get by doing anything in this game.
This makes it so you can't really play the game endlessly without feeling like it's pointless, unless you play a couple of hours a week, which is literally the definition of a casual player, which is exactly the kind of player CBU3 is doing content for.

They aren't doing massive amounts of content for hardcore players, if they were really pivoting towards them, the dungeons, alliance raids and OC would all be 1000% more punishing.

The only meaningful reward that any game can provide is being interesting to play.

Those who equate "interesting" with "hard" are a tiny minority.

It's puzzling to me that the same crowd who complain that "this is supposed to be an MMO" are also the ones that lobby hardest to make FF14 a raid simulator.

[Volgia]

The only meaningful reward that any game can provide is being interesting to play.

Those who equate "interesting" with "hard" are a tiny minority.

It's puzzling to me that the same crowd who complain that "this is supposed to be an MMO" are also the ones that lobby hardest to make FF14 a raid simulator.

The only meaningful reward an MMO can give you is that you are playing with a lot of people and making a community based on the content you play. The only people who successfully do that in this game are roleplayers and raiders, because it's the only type of content where you need to be social to succeed.

[Mawlzy]

The only meaningful reward an MMO can give you is that you are playing with a lot of people and making a community based on the content you play. The only people who successfully do that in this game are roleplayers and raiders, because it's the only type of content where you need to be social to succeed.

I completely disagree, as apparently does SE.

"Social" means different things to different people, and the only meaningful measure of "success" in any game is that you are enjoying the game.

If all FFXIV means to you is a source of raiding content that has to be cleared, then yes, you need to coordinate with other people. But there needn't be anything remotely "social" about it; it's purely transactional.

In a story-based MMO, you can watch the movie on your own or in a theatre with others. Anyone who uses the Market Board is participating in the multiplayer aspect.

[Volgia]

I completely disagree, as apparently does SE.

"Social" means different things to different people, and the only meaningful measure of "success" in any game is that you are enjoying the game.

If all FFXIV means to you is a source of raiding content that has to be cleared, then yes, you need to coordinate with other people. But there needn't be anything remotely "social" about it; it's purely transactional.

In a story-based MMO, you can watch the movie on your own or in a theatre with others. Anyone who uses the Market Board is participating in the multiplayer aspect.

Social as in I need to interact with you in order to play the game. In non-raiding content I don't need to talk to you to play the game, some content even disables your ability to communicate when you play (Crystalline Conflict).

[Mawlzy]

Social as in I need to interact with you in order to play the game. In non-raiding content I don't need to talk to you to play the game, some content even disables your ability to communicate when you play (Crystalline Conflict).

Right. I doubt I would've tolerated SE's slip-ups as long as I did if I didn't have an FC with friends (all of whom have now unsubbed). Our social interaction would include taking a multi-seater mount to watch the sunset at Costa del Sol, discussing if Mikel Arteta was a human being or a Thunderbird Puppet.

Again, you've just shifted the vagaries of "social" to "interaction." Am I not interacting with 71 other players when I play a Frontline match? Certainly not something I can do in a single-player game.

A few years ago, Josh Strife Hayes (who has probably played more MMOs than anyone) put out a fascinating video on how "solo players" are required for MMOs to survive. It's a pity more people haven't watched it.

And you can communicate in CC. There is a lot more to communication than someone yelling "cleave right" on vc.

[Kaurhz]

And you think that old crafting was less boring than it is now? You think something like the ARR and HW's grind were just more engaging? Cuz they weren't. The only thing they had going for them is that they weren't as accessible as they are now.

Square Enix pivoted hard to make the game incredibly more casual than it used to be, by rewarding you hard through no effort, they dissipated the sense of achievement you would get by doing anything in this game.
This makes it so you can't really play the game endlessly without feeling like it's pointless, unless you play a couple of hours a week, which is literally the definition of a casual player, which is exactly the kind of player CBU3 is doing content for.

They aren't doing massive amounts of content for hardcore players, if they were really pivoting towards them, the dungeons, alliance raids and OC would all be 1000% more punishing.

Then you clearly didn't interact with it very much, it had you doing a wide array of content, you had abilities that placed a great deal of RNG control in your hands, e.g., the Whistle While You Work system, which was a suite of abilities in itself, which allowed you to do recipes a lot more creatively, the general recipes also had you engaging far more too, and were more diversely spread than just the simple... 4 folklore, 2 tome items. Needn't get started on the rework to innovation and inner quiet, which has largely turned the control stat into a mess (Depending on HQ contribution, you could find yourself having a lot of redundant stat, something that Ceremonial gear encountered, . Gear progression in ARR and HW was a lot better than it is now, since it actually had a sense of deep character progression, versus the simple... "Go out and scrip it bro". Quit the game for 16 months? No problem, go do one of the old Custom delivery clients, and there you go, all caught up in the space of 20 minutes.

You can honestly call it what you want, I frankly don't care, people simple want a reason to play the game, that gave a reason, as it stands, this game tries to give more reasons to not play it, than what it does to actually play it.

I don't really think they are doing content for anyone, the pace with which the game does content, and the depth that it releases it at, is abysmal at best, even for those that can only play for a couple hours weekly. As my schedule currently stands, I am that player -- and I am bored out of my mind.

Like I have suggested several times, they aren't really doing massive amounts of content for anyone. The only thing they are doing is creating feature and system quotas with nobody -- or nothing -- in mind. The only issue I take is that somehow, some people seem to believe that the state of this game is defensible because we have raids as a means of 'challenging and engaging yourself'.

Like I also said in my initial post... People were actually wanting -- and expecting to have a reason to play the game.