Predictions for OC/FT Live Letter

[Myon88]

I think people just don't need crafting EXP as much which is why there's less participation than Firmament. People jumped servers and clogged up Firmament zones just for the construction FATEs, because they gave crafting EXP and there wasn't as many ways to get it back then. Now people don't need EXP as much and just get annoyed by the construction FATEs because they block Red Alerts that give a pile of currency and tool progress.

That's something I've always thought about when it came to how HoH and EO were never really able to capture the same success as PotD.

One of the main reasons is that the entire surrounding game environment was simply different back then. You didn't have allied tribe quests that - from SHB onwards - give you half a level of XP a day. It also serviced the entire 1-60 level range. That's a massive gulf compared to the newer deep dungeons and field ops that only bridge a 10 level gap. Between roulettes and the aforementioned allied quests, 10 levels is 3 or 4 days of casual dailies max.

PvP was not as popular back then, so no half a level from frontline roulette as well (I can't actually recall if it even gave that much XP back then). The qol that allows you to queue and play on different jobs and more easily receive XP on the job you wanted did not exist back then either.

Fun fact, it didn't always use to be the case that your actions and abilities tab displayed everything up to the game's level cap. You only saw what was available to you up to your current level. Running PotD was a popular way to temporarily unlock the full tab and steal those icons for your hotbar, so you could begin setting it up earlier.

You lose a lot of organic participation from the wider community because of stuff like that. As a result they have to stand on their own solely on the merits of their gameplay mechanics and exclusive rewards.

[Jeeqbit]

HoH and EO were never really able to capture the same success as PotD.

The reason POTD was successful is simple. It can be done from level 17. So there are a constant supply of new players potentially being recommended to give it a try because it's "good for leveling".

But once those players have tried it, they're probably bored of it. Running through, 1-shotting mobs, struggling to get queues, when roulettes provide them far more variety and new players have the MSQ anyway.

By the time you get to HoH, you either didn't unlock POTD yet and can't unlock it, or you ignore the sidequest in the Ruby Sea. If you do manage to unlock it, you probably won't get a queue for it to clear up to where people farm it (floors 21-30). People even struggle with clearing 1-50 of POTD now. Because most people in queue are at 51-60.

When EO released, anyone who wanted to level jobs probably already did. The queues were dead on release, to the point my only option was to solo 1-30. So EO ended up being more useful for solo achievement hunters. People may do it for leveling reasons in the future now that it's old, but they'll suffer the same issue as HoH - they can't get anyone to help them clear 1-30 so they can farm 21-30.

You didn't have allied tribe quests that - from SHB onwards - give you half a level of XP a day.

This isn't true and here's why. In Heavensward and Stormblood we had two battle tribes. Moreover, the exp increased if we maxed out the rank. What changed in Shadowbringers was we only had one battle tribe so they could split the other two between crafter/gatherer, thus the exp was doubled for the battle tribe.

But doing one tribe is slightly less work than doing two, that is true, and you don't have to wait as long into the expansion to get the maximum exp benefit.

PvP was not as popular back then, so no half a level from frontline roulette as well

I vaguely recall people saying it was good even before all these revamps, but because PvP wasn't popular overall it wasn't as widely recommended. Can't recommend something you don't do, after all. I still think that even if Feast wasn't that popular, that Frontline was still a thing though because of simply being in the roulette list. It was just an if you know then you know, if you don't then you'll probably never even see the acronym "PvP" anywhere.

The qol that allows you to queue and play on different jobs and more easily receive XP on the job you wanted did not exist back then either.

It has existed since Frontline was implemented in 2.3, and it's been a thing ever since I can remember.

We've got prominent, 'influencers' setting just the best example (/sarcasm) to their fanatics that discords are great just 'because' they keep out the wrong people.

That's all irrelevant. If you join a discord run through their processes, follow the instructions and join the relevant voice channel when it starts, then all you do is listen. For example, they will say things like "everyone to the right". "It's going to cleave behind in 10 seconds. Get in front. 3... 2... 1..." etc. It makes the fights incredibly trivial, provided you are capable of pressing your movement keys.

It's often a little more involved for tanks, but that's expected (add placement, interrupts, aggro, TBs).

You've got logs in every discord.

In my experience that's more of an EU thing. Not saying it doesn't happen on NA, but it's a minority. The vast majority of NA (including its raiders) are incredibly casual so they come back undergeared and everything. Finding a party that don't care about performance is incredibly easy here.

frankly how dare you suggest (because i know you are not clueless Jeeqbit) that that is not the the stance with which those FT discords are ubiquitous.

I've spoken to the leaders of some of these discords. I'm not just saying it.

[Mawlzy]

If you join a discord run through their processes, follow the instructions and join the relevant voice channel when it starts, then all you do is listen. For example, they will say things like "everyone to the right". "It's going to cleave behind in 10 seconds. Get in front. 3... 2... 1..." etc. It makes the fights incredibly trivial, provided you are capable of pressing your movement keys.

I'm really glad you gave this description, Jeeqbit, because it will deter players from getting involved in this nonsense.

The majority of people who get online to play a game, have absolutely no interest in following instructions, then following directions. They already have a job that is far more rewarding than that.

Moreover, if this process makes the fight "trivial," what on earth is the point?

Apparently it's not the casuals at all that fear challenge, it's those that only engage in content that requires them to march up and down on the parade ground following the orders of a drill sergeant.

[Jeeqbit]

The majority of people who get online to play a game, have absolutely no interest in following instructions, then following directions. They already have a job that is far more rewarding than that.

While you may be correct, the fact is, SE made the content complicated enough that following instructions and directions is needed either way. Even if you somehow did not do it through Discord, you would need to go through the process of assigning roles and discussing strategies. In some cases, you may need to explain the fight as well. You even have to do all this if you join an Extreme or Savage PF.

Add to this that SE makes it even more complicated with things such as farming Logos/Lost Actions, leveling Phantom jobs (or looting them). And what you have is enough that a Discord is going to write a guide about which actions/jobs are needed for what, and what you may need to grind for it, etc. Writing such a guide is reasonable, of course, to help people.

Moreover, if this process makes the fight "trivial," what on earth is the point?

That is always the point. Back in ancient times, apes and early humans would build tools to gain an advantage and "trivialize" their task. When you do content, whether it be dungeons, extremes or higher end raids, it's common to watch a guide and those guides are made to trivialize the content and make it easier for the masses. In similar fashion, the purpose of these Discord servers is to trivialize the content for the masses and make it so the least skilled player possible can clear.

As you always like to point out, some people will never have the ability to clear things due to disabilities, age, or whatever, but the Discords try their best to trivialize it for them as much as possible and work around SE's poorly implemented systems.

[Mawlzy]

As you always like to point out, some people will never have the ability to clear things due to disabilities, age, or whatever, but the Discords try their best to trivialize it for them as much as possible and work around SE's poorly implemented systems.

I can agree with poorly-implemented systems. The SE devs sit there rubbing their hands together as they increase cast speed and add an increasing number of overlapping AoEs, then equally devoted guide makers and shot-callers reverse-engineer the work of the devs to find the simplest solution.

It is the worst approach to PvE design I have seen in any game ever, and one reason I'm letting my sub expire.

Incidentally, I have been a member of Discords related to this game in the past. IME it is the minority that create a friendly environment in which the key personnel are motivated by a love of the game and a desire to help. The majority are spiteful fiefdoms run by manipulative individuals, while others promote in-game cheating and ToS violations.

But maybe I've just been unlucky.

[Jeeqbit]

Incidentally, I have been a member of Discords related to this game in the past. IME it is the minority that create a friendly environment in which the key personnel are motivated by a love of the game and a desire to help. The majority are spiteful fiefdoms run by manipulative individuals, while others promote in-game cheating and ToS violations.

But maybe I've just been unlucky.

There are certainly servers with a lot of internal drama, largely brought about by passion for the subject or interpersonal disputes, but in my own experience this is rare ie. a drama comes about every few years, maybe gets overblown in public when it wasn't actually that bad.

Really like any company, organization, council or government, Discords can be mismanaged. Even when they are managed well, they are managed by humans who are not perfect and have to try to balance conflicting personalities and social dynamics. That's just life generally.

What really matters is: do they let all of that spill over and affect their users? Some of them might, but I think the good ones will keep the drama and bickering to themselves if it happens.

[Valence]

I'm really glad you gave this description, Jeeqbit, because it will deter players from getting involved in this nonsense.

The majority of people who get online to play a game, have absolutely no interest in following instructions, then following directions. They already have a job that is far more rewarding than that.

Moreover, if this process makes the fight "trivial," what on earth is the point?

Apparently it's not the casuals at all that fear challenge, it's those that only engage in content that requires them to march up and down on the parade ground following the orders of a drill sergeant.

Yeah that's why I found my run of BA extremely underwhelming when I did it last expansion. The whole concept of the instance looked pretty interesting, but ultimately it's been figured out, and there is no individual responsibility beyond the few leaders and it's all about following instructions. You have nothing to do at your level in terms of agency. And even if you wanted to try something, you can't because discipline has to be tight since a single mistake can potentially wipe the instance or kill half the party (with limited raises).

All in all it always boils down to a single denominator in XIV modern design, which is body checks, or the step sibling called "someone steps on the wrong spot everybody wipes and you have little to no control over it". That's the only way the devs are able to make this type of pve challenging, because otherwise people can just raise each other ad nauseam like in all casual modes. You can for example see this in contrast between the Mhach/Ivalice raids, notably with Ozma or TG Cid (both got nerfed for this reason) where mistakes could snowball into a wipe (but those fights back then still had the decency to offer margin for recovery and skill expression for supports), vs Nier raids that came after, with possibly a lot more individual casualties than any other raid, but where wiping was quite unusual, because there is no body check whatsoever, or no snowballing mechanic.

What I did like in the old pve model is that it was less about binary body checks or "gotcha into raid wipe", and more about snowballing death effects that people had to get under control and potentially save under specific margins, which Mhach and Ivalice back then did very well (in combination with the old battle system). BA and consorts on the other hand, try to insert walls that are more tied to flawless execution, something that's been more and more central to any extreme/savage+ fight and culminates in ultimates.

[Mawlzy]

Yeah that's why I found my run of BA extremely underwhelming when I did it last expansion. The whole concept of the instance looked pretty interesting, but ultimately it's been figured out, and there is no individual responsibility beyond the few leaders and it's all about following instructions. You have nothing to do at your level in terms of agency. And even if you wanted to try something, you can't because discipline has to be tight since a single mistake can potentially wipe the instance or kill half the party (with limited raises).

Mmmm Jeeqbit described the Discord implementation of FT as simply following positional call-outs, so that all that is required is pressing the movement buttons. I assume it's helpful if that is coupled with pressing your actions buttons in a pre-determined rotation. But honestly if I wanted to exercise my fingers in that way I'd pick up my guitar.