Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

[Kasumii]

Well, there's the problem, the random isn't in the group, they are objectively a solo player because they are not in a party. If a solo player can report people for not healing/raising them, then anyone can go die to an AoE in a hunt train and report every single healer there.

Splitting hairs. But I will indulge you. So in an alliance raid its okay to not revive the other alliances healers because they are not in your group? Because they are not in your party. So they are objectively not in your group.

Your argument falls apart because this is group content. Content designed to do as a group. So even if that player isn't in your discord group or your in-game party they are in the same dungeon and the same instance as you doing the same content you do.

You can make this argument ad nauseum but I understand that you desperately want to miss the point and convince yourself its okay. And then wonder why discord groups are so hated. /shrug

[Aravell]

Splitting hairs. But I will indulge you. So in an alliance raid its okay to not revive the other alliances healers because they are not in your group? Because they are not in your party. So they are objectively not in your group.

Your argument falls apart because this is group content. Content designed to do as a group. So even if that player isn't in your discord group or your in-game party they are in the same dungeon and the same instance as you doing the same content you do.

You can make this argument ad nauseum but I understand that you desperately want to miss the point and convince yourself its okay. And then wonder why discord groups are so hated. /shrug

You're ignoring the fact that in alliance raids, there's the alliance frames where everyone is listed there, they are in your group.

In FT, it is not an alliance raid, there are no alliance frames, any random player is entirely solo, there is no way to see them easily if you don't have other player nameplates on.

You are grasping at straws to try and justify reporting people. If the ToS truly works that way, you can die to literally anything in a hunt train or FATE train and report any healer around because they're not helping you when doing the same content as you.

I swear, some of you are just holding such irrational hate towards people who just want the best chance to clear content. It's entirely pointless to discuss anything with people who hold such hate.

[Aniise]

Oof, Forked Tower really seems to bring out the worst of our so called 'great community'.

It's sad to see, but it's an issue that has developed over the years and has gotten worse and worse. And it's so ironic, too.
I mean, I'm sure a lot of us remember the great WoW Exodus during Shadowbringes. Where many of us didn't want those players to join our 'nice, peaceful' community.
Because their game was supposed to be ultra toxic, casual unfriendly, third party programs were everywhere and don't even start about parsing...

...and look at us now. Look at our community. At the state of the game. It's almost funny, really. We are what we accused WoW of being back then. We have become exactly that.

While toxicity exists in every MMO, and undoubtedly has always existed in 14 as well, it has become worse.
And the baffling decisions of the developers releasing content like this, that is clearly dividing the player base even more and provoking
arguments and disputes among ourselves are making it worse by the minute.

Reading this thread has shown me one thing however: None of us are happy about the status quo.
Casuals aren't happy. Raiders aren't happy (even though right now they are on the favored side of the coin, but who knows for how long?). And still, we blame each other.

OP, personally, I don't think you did something inherently wrong by joining content that is free to join if you meet the requirements. At the same time, I can also understand the frustration of the raid group.
Still, being frustrated should not result in griefing or insults.
The devs need to step up their game to create an environment that doesn't pit players against each other.
So far, sadly, they have failed at this task...

[RuriStone]

There is more to society than rules. We are not robots. We are human beings. There is also basic human courtesy. This would involve having the social antenna to recognise if a group is occupying a space with a clear objective/purpose.

In the case of our back and forth. Yes, it would be disruptive to set up a picnic in the middle of the field where 20 people are playing football - even if the letter of the law grants you the right to do so.

I'd recommend against engaging in the most law-abiding disruptive behaviour humanly possible in IRL public spaces though. You'd have more than rogue tankbusters and polite requests to leave to worry about.

Courtesy wouldn't be asking somebody to leave it would be offering a level of respect to invite the person and confirm they would be ok to join you all so you can play as a group.

[Kasumii]

You're ignoring the fact that in alliance raids, there's the alliance frames where everyone is listed there, they are in your group.

In FT, it is not an alliance raid, there are no alliance frames, any random player is entirely solo, there is no way to see them easily if you don't have other player nameplates on.

You are grasping at straws to try and justify reporting people. If the ToS truly works that way, you can die to literally anything in a hunt train or FATE train and report any healer around because they're not helping you when doing the same content as you.

Im merely pointing out the flaws in your logic. Nobody is calling for a rez mid battle either. But dead bodies on the floor after the battle are visible by anyone even if you turned nameplates off and I would consider not offering a rez in that situation harassment yes. You can accuse me of grasping at straws and compare hunt trains to an instanced raid if youd like. If it makes you feel happier and mightier that those diddly darn randoms got what they deserved do go off. Noones taking that away from you.

I am arguing from the point that it can be seen as a ToS violation because it is intentionally done to hinder those players from doing the content and in most cases even announced in say chat a la "we will not revive you". And if that ever happened to me I would sure as hell report people for it.

[Carin-Eri]

Lmao I know I do. I also leave things on grocery store shelves slightly askew. Even more diabolically When someone tells me to enjoy my meal I say thanks you too. They don't even have a meal to enjoy Muahahahahahahahaha!!!

You fiend!

[AvoSturmfaust]

Oof, Forked Tower really seems to bring out the worst of our so called 'great community'.

It's sad to see, but it's an issue that has developed over the years and has gotten worse and worse. And it's so ironic, too.
I mean, I'm sure a lot of us remember the great WoW Exodus during Shadowbringes. Where many of us didn't want those players to join our 'nice, peaceful' community.
Because their game was supposed to be ultra toxic, casual unfriendly, third party programs were everywhere and don't even start about parsing...

...and look at us now. Look at our community. At the state of the game. It's almost funny, really. We are what we accused WoW of being back then. We have become exactly that.

While toxicity exists in every MMO, and undoubtedly has always existed in 14 as well, it has become worse.
And the baffling decisions of the developers releasing content like this, that is clearly dividing the player base even more and provoking
arguments and disputes among ourselves is making it worse by the minute.

Reading this thread has shown me one thing however: None of us are happy about the status quo.
Casuals aren't happy. Raiders aren't happy (even though right now they are on the favored side of the coin, at the moment, however.). And still, we blame each other.

OP, personally, I don't think you did something inherently wrong by joining content that is free to join if yoiu meet the requirements. I can also understand the frustration of the raid group, however.
Still, being frustrated should not result in griefing or insults.
The devs need to step up their game to create an environment that doesn't pit players against each other.
So far, sadly, they have failed at this task...

Im honest FFXIV was always toxic if you look deeper, we were never better then WoW, the difference was we couldnt actually say something because look at the ToS which Kasumii posts, i mean even saying someone he should repair his Gear is a violation against ToS wtf? So we had this kind of silent Toxicity, kicking people without saying something or just leaving the Group after 1-2 Pulls. Then with the recently Things like Chaotic you could be toxic without violating the ToS like I open the Group, I deceide which Person i wanna have in it, so people just started to dont care anymore about the ToS which is good because lets be real some points a laughable, i mean like i said you can get reported for asking someone to repair the gear, weak ass game.

[RuriStone]

There is more to society than rules. We are not robots. We are human beings. There is also basic human courtesy. This would involve having the social antenna to recognise if a group is occupying a space with a clear objective/purpose.

In the case of our back and forth. Yes, it would be disruptive to set up a picnic in the middle of the field where 20 people are playing football - even if the letter of the law grants you the right to do so.

I'd recommend against engaging in the most law-abiding disruptive behaviour humanly possible in IRL public spaces though. You'd have more than rogue tankbusters and polite requests to leave to worry about.

Joining in with this content makes us another football player just the same as the other football players. Yes setting up a picnic would be disruptive which I guess is akin to playing badly on purpose but this is not what has happened here.

[Aravell]

Im merely pointing out the flaws in your logic.

And I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument.

It's grasping at straws at best since there's nothing in the ToS saying that it's illegal to ignore someone. If someone dies at the end of a CE and everyone returns to make it to the next FATE, should the dead person report everyone there? It's the same argument and it's very flawed.

FT is a public dungeon, there is the option to go solo there, it's not ToS-breaking to ignore players not in your party, these are the facts. Now if you argue that actively killing the player and refusing to raise is bad, then I'd agree with you, but if the player dies naturally through their own fault, it's not breaking ToS to simply not interact and just leave them.

However, if the party has someone stupid enough to jump up and down on the dead body like what happened with OP, then that's 100% reportable.

Forked Tower COULD have been a true moment of solidarity, given how hard it was literally screwing EVERYONE over and that both sides could have come together in lambasting Square-Enix over it, maybe even boycotting it, and that it would have spoke a lot louder if had little to no engagement and zero clears

I don't think there's any hope for solidarity since everyone has already been stabbing each other in the back over peanuts since early Endwalker.

[RuriStone]

That's easy. Don't do it, let the content languish and die as it deserved.

But then that's been the problem with this playerbase for a long time now, isn't it?

"Ugh, this tastes awful and I think it's actually making me sick." *Pays to gulp down another rancid spoonful anyway.*

Instead we have people trying to "force" the content to work via third-party methods and giving Square-Enix exactly what they wanted; People clearing the content so that means its working fine. I'm not sure the Discord groups realize that they're not admonishing Square-Enix for their mistake by engaging with the content, but are in fact giving them a pat on the back for their "effort".

You know it too, you know damn well they're going to take these agonizing successes as their own success and that they don't need to change anything. "But the Live Lettter!" We are banking on a MAYBE here, that's how far things have degraded, or more importantly... IT NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THIS WAY TO BEGIN WITH.

And that's the funniest irony, and the one part where I do sympathize with hardcore players; They're so used to being beaten around and asked to be thankful, that the moment Yoshi-P raised the stick they immediately jumped and danced. Even as they're gritting their teeth and pulling their hair out over the whole process they just keep on dancing, hoping and praying it gets better "eventually".

Well... take a long hard look at how much casuals have been hoping and praying, we can tell you right now how that ends up.

Forked Tower COULD have been a true moment of solidarity, given how hard it was literally screwing EVERYONE over and that both sides could have come together in lambasting Square-Enix over it, maybe even boycotting it, and that it would have spoke a lot louder if had little to no engagement and zero clears... but instead a part of the playerbase saw it as another way to flex and dunk on others even as they screamed and whined about how much they hated trying to do it. Quite the amusing social test actually.

"You can sit this content out and help the casuals in getting it fixed for everyone, or do the content as-is ensuring nothing likely changes if it means the casuals get nothing yet again."

And whew, look at which choice got the most votes! Though its hardly a surprise, we saw the outcome over Chaotic. So yeah, that's why I don't buy for a second that any hardcore player or Discord group just wants to be buddy-buddy with me because I've seen TWICE NOW how they'll crawl over glass to keep the gate shut tight.
+++



And we can't even blame it on the WoW players coming over here and "infesting" our community because they've all long since left to go back to WoW. This is 100% us at our "finest".

hear hear!