So how is everyone feeling about Occult Crescent now that it’s been a few days?

[Valence]

Speaking of Role Actions... Square-Enix can't even get those right "at base" considering the large amount of useless ones that ranged DPS alone ended up with. Should I really expect them to come up with a talent system that's going to make the Grazes, for example, into something worthwhile?

The grazes and other similar "useless" role actions are extremely useful in content that does make use of them, notably deep dungeons, but ironically, in Eureka as well (couldn't mound until max level, mobs would aggro and follow you to narnia so having tools to shake them off was the difference between life and death).
The last time standard pve actually made use of Heavy was in Coils with the Renauds in ARR. And then they stopped bothering with crowd control altogether, and io and behold, made sure to make the remaining tools like Fluid Aura on WHM or point blank on MCH obnoxious af in dungeons until people clamored for them to be deleted, and made sure to keep binds like AST Stella, SMN Tri-Bind or RDM Tether in spite of them never being used and ensuring players would complain about them not removing those "useless garbage spells" when new expansions came out. And guess what, they were probably very happy to have players clamor for their removal so they'd not have to bother with crowd control ever anymore, and just kept some of it in role actions for non standard pve content because they decided since long that the pve they wanted wasn't about playing a RPG but dancing to a partition.

This is all still reliant on the developers creating a biome with sustainability, and a playerbase that allows smaller/lesser life to flourish instead of immediately mauling it, and that just isn't something I really personally trust that FF14 can do. Was there not a cross-skill system in the past even? Whose to blame for that getting axed? The developers for not improving choices, or players for trivializing the process?

Ah... wait, I bet it was the changes to boss encounters, wasn't it? Can't have people free-styling during the choreographed dance number and whatnot.

Cross class was somewhat basic but worked actually decently, but mostly in Stormblood where you could choose which of the cross class abilities available to your job you wanted. It was already consolidated under the "role action" system, but you couldn't have access to all of them, a bit like what multiple iterations of Frontline pvp have done in the past and do today. I think you could only pick 3 of them out of 5-6.
In HW it was a hot mess and still categorized under the cross class system since what you had access to was just some eligible abilities from the 2 "adjacent" jobs to your job, for instance a Paladin could raise since you could technically add Raise as a cross class action from WHM which was one of the two cross classes for the job, which is something that was could be pretty interesting if just for that example. The main issue is that it required people to level those cross class jobs to a level high enough to unlock those abilities before being able to use them, which had pros and cons.
Either way it was funny to see people not always having the exact same toolkit between two of the same jobs. Raising/Esuna paladins, Raging Strikes Black Mages and Machinists, but also abilities like Second Wind for example that was a MNK skill that could cross class only into DRG, BRD and NIN, or Bloodbath from WAR crossclassing into the two other tanks as well as MNK and DRG.
I think HW and SB could have merged this system even further by using HW's pollination system and restricting the amount of cross classes you could pick to make meaningful choices. Some of them like raise were meta, but a lot were actually just different flavours of utility or comfort.

[Fawkes]

Cross class was somewhat basic but worked actually decently, but mostly in Stormblood where you could choose which of the cross class abilities available to your job you wanted. It was already consolidated under the "role action" system, but you couldn't have access to all of them, a bit like what multiple iterations of Frontline pvp have done in the past and do today. I think you could only pick 3 of them out of 5-6.
In HW it was a hot mess and still categorized under the cross class system since what you had access to was just some eligible abilities from the 2 "adjacent" jobs to your job, for instance a Paladin could raise since you could technically add Raise as a cross class action from WHM which was one of the two cross classes for the job, which is something that was could be pretty interesting if just for that example. The main issue is that it required people to level those cross class jobs to a level high enough to unlock those abilities before being able to use them, which had pros and cons.
Either way it was funny to see people not always having the exact same toolkit between two of the same jobs. Raising/Esuna paladins, Raging Strikes Black Mages and Machinists, but also abilities like Second Wind for example that was a MNK skill that could cross class only into DRG, BRD and NIN, or Bloodbath from WAR crossclassing into the two other tanks as well as MNK and DRG.
I think HW and SB could have merged this system even further by using HW's pollination system and restricting the amount of cross classes you could pick to make meaningful choices. Some of them like raise were meta, but a lot were actually just different flavours of utility or comfort.

The problem with the role action system was they mostly just took abilities we already had and locked them away in a system where you could only pick 5, and some of them felt like they were mandatory, so it never felt like customization. Similarly, the cross-class system before that had "must have" abilities and then a bunch of fluff you could pick if you wanted that never really made much difference. And you had to level the jobs to have access to the abilities, so if you wanted to be a good tank or a good healer you had to level multiple classes. And before that you were directly required to level multiple classes, the job unlock quests originally had requirements like Paladin needed you to be gladiator 30 and conjurer 15 or something. But people didn't like being "forced" to level another class if they just wanted to be a tank.

And if we go all the way back to early 1.0, the game used to be entirely cross-class. Every class was basically freelancer, you could assign pretty much any ability you had learned with any other class. You had set points you were limited by similar to the Blue Mage job in FFXI so you couldn't just equip them all at once. Also there weren't restrictions on what classes could wear what, so mages could wear armor. I think all that led to the meta being everyone just playing as Thaumaturge regardless of what role they were doing.

[Daralii]

The problem with the role action system was they mostly just took abilities we already had and locked them away in a system where you could only pick 5, and some of them felt like they were mandatory, so it never felt like customization. Similarly, the cross-class system before that had "must have" abilities and then a bunch of fluff you could pick if you wanted that never really made much difference. And you had to level the jobs to have access to the abilities, so if you wanted to be a good tank or a good healer you had to level multiple classes. And before that you were directly required to level multiple classes, the job unlock quests originally had requirements like Paladin needed you to be gladiator 30 and conjurer 15 or something. But people didn't like being "forced" to level another class if they just wanted to be a tank.

And if we go all the way back to early 1.0, the game used to be entirely cross-class. Every class was basically freelancer, you could assign pretty much any ability you had learned with any other class. You had set points you were limited by similar to the Blue Mage job in FFXI so you couldn't just equip them all at once. Also there weren't restrictions on what classes could wear what, so mages could wear armor. I think all that led to the meta being everyone just playing as Thaumaturge regardless of what role they were doing.

One weird part of the transition to role actions was that healers used to have their own dispels that were functionally identical but had some job flavor, so healers are still effectively short one button because they were all consolidated into Esuna.

[Valence]

The problem with the role action system was they mostly just took abilities we already had and locked them away in a system where you could only pick 5, and some of them felt like they were mandatory, so it never felt like customization. Similarly, the cross-class system before that had "must have" abilities and then a bunch of fluff you could pick if you wanted that never really made much difference. And you had to level the jobs to have access to the abilities, so if you wanted to be a good tank or a good healer you had to level multiple classes. And before that you were directly required to level multiple classes, the job unlock quests originally had requirements like Paladin needed you to be gladiator 30 and conjurer 15 or something. But people didn't like being "forced" to level another class if they just wanted to be a tank.

And if we go all the way back to early 1.0, the game used to be entirely cross-class. Every class was basically freelancer, you could assign pretty much any ability you had learned with any other class. You had set points you were limited by similar to the Blue Mage job in FFXI so you couldn't just equip them all at once. Also there weren't restrictions on what classes could wear what, so mages could wear armor. I think all that led to the meta being everyone just playing as Thaumaturge regardless of what role they were doing.

Partial disagree on what was mandatory. In fact I have seen different setups in content and some actions were not always picked, namely things like manashift or even refresh (because MP stability was already fading in Stormblood by that point). There was also actually smart people not taking Protect on healers for the pitiful defense gain it gave, but unfortunately the community was so dented about protect that you'd get harassed by clueless dungeon runners whenever you wouldn't cast it at the start of a dungeon.

But it never felt like true customization precisely because it never really pushed the intricacies of the system. HW did it best by having those not role based but class adjacent based which made every job a lot more unique, but didn't have the "select your options among many" that SB had, and we could certainly have done with a lot of the utility abilities that were actually cross class back then like Second Wind or Bloodbath, which were not necessarily meta depending on the job so you could have had more wiggle room into choosing what suits your playstyle.

I've always seen the argument that having to level multiple classes to be a "good X or Y" was bad, but is that a bad thing in a game that's literally about leveling multiple classes? Is that a bad thing that someone that actually invests some time gets access to additional perks? It never prevented anybody to play a tank, a healer or whatever not to have leveled their crossclasses. In fact, this was only mandatory for high end raiding. The first extremes I did back then I didn't even have swiftcast as a healer. Someone told me I should consider it, but I've never been removed or anything for not having it. I mean, I could slow raise, it wasn't such a biggie. And that made me actually want to level other classes.

[ForteNightshade]

Partial disagree on what was mandatory. In fact I have seen different setups in content and some actions were not always picked, namely things like manashift or even refresh (because MP stability was already fading in Stormblood by that point). There was also actually smart people not taking Protect on healers for the pitiful defense gain it gave, but unfortunately the community was so dented about protect that you'd get harassed by clueless dungeon runners whenever you wouldn't cast it at the start of a dungeon.

But it never felt like true customization precisely because it never really pushed the intricacies of the system. HW did it best by having those not role based but class adjacent based which made every job a lot more unique, but didn't have the "select your options among many" that SB had, and we could certainly have done with a lot of the utility abilities that were actually cross class back then like Second Wind or Bloodbath, which were not necessarily meta depending on the job so you could have had more wiggle room into choosing what suits your playstyle.

I've always seen the argument that having to level multiple classes to be a "good X or Y" was bad, but is that a bad thing in a game that's literally about leveling multiple classes? Is that a bad thing that someone that actually invests some time gets access to additional perks? It never prevented anybody to play a tank, a healer or whatever not to have leveled their crossclasses. In fact, this was only mandatory for high end raiding. The first extremes I did back then I didn't even have swiftcast as a healer. Someone told me I should consider it, but I've never been removed or anything for not having it. I mean, I could slow raise, it wasn't such a biggie. And that made me actually want to level other classes.

This is a little revisionist history. No one ever dropped Refresh because the Prange didn't really have anything beyond four abilities worth using. Bards also utilized Refresh as a core part of their damage rotation not to simply help healers maintain MP. In fact, that was secondary in higher end content and often led to conflict since you'd have healers spam GCDs heals, especially WHM, only to then complain the Bard wasn't using Refresh for them. Which is likely what contributed to the gradual decline in MP relevance and Refresh altogether.

Likewise, going back to Heavensward and the cross skill system. Tanks really had only one decision to make because Rampart, Provoke, Convalescence, Invigorate and Second Wind were all essentially mandatory. From there you picked some combination of Awareness or Bloodbath. DPS were not any better has you were always choosing Blood for Blood, Internal Release, Second Wind, Bloodbath and Invigorate. Goad was really the only ability swapped on the melee. Prange.

As for leveling other jobs, I have to disagree. Being forced to play a class you may not like isn't fun nor does it encourage people to learn how to play it. We see this even nowadays with leveling and how many people will queue into high level content without a clue what they're doing simply because they need to have all their jobs at max level. The game has never been about leveling multiple classes, but simply providing the option to do so all on one character should you choose. Which is why so many people disliked feeling forced to level other characters.

And in the case of tanks, you were essentially forced to level Gladiator because you needed Provoke. Nowadays you would get kicked for not having Swiftcast in EXs because there's quite literally zero reason not to. Back in ARR days, the game was new and people were still figuring out how to even do things.

[Ephremjlm]

This is a little revisionist history.

I think the biggest thing about this is not that the idea was bad, it was that the implementation was bad. Once again I have to reference FFXI because SE owns it, the game is still there, and the same team runs it. But leveling other jobs in that game was great for sub jobs. It WAS interesting. They made all jobs fun, gave them all unique utility, and it felt fulfilling when you were able to take abilities and stats from other jobs into your main. Why do we think people initially got SOOOO excited for the Phantom Job system when it was announced in Occult Crescent. Its basically the same thing, just a shorter time span for leveling.

I get what you're saying that it was annoying in FFXIV, but like anything we need to look at all the pieces and the context before we make any sweeping judgements. Its that same mindset that got us to the homogenized mess that we have today.

[Daralii]

I think the biggest thing about this is not that the idea was bad, it was that the implementation was bad. Once again I have to reference FFXI because SE owns it, the game is still there, and the same team runs it. But leveling other jobs in that game was great for sub jobs. It WAS interesting. They made all jobs fun, gave them all unique utility, and it felt fulfilling when you were able to take abilities and stats from other jobs into your main. Why do we think people initially got SOOOO excited for the Phantom Job system when it was announced in Occult Crescent. Its basically the same thing, just a shorter time span for leveling.

I get what you're saying that it was annoying in FFXIV, but I like anything we need to look at all the pieces and the context before we make any sweeping judgements. Its that same mindset that got us to the homogenized mess that we have today.

You can go even further back if you want. Mastering a job in FFV, the game they're pulling this shit from, let you carry over a skill from it to other jobs. Freelancer had the unique ability to utilize much more and equip any gear, so mastering other jobs eventually built it up to become extremely strong.

[Ephremjlm]

You can go even further back if you want. Mastering a job in FFV, the game they're pulling this shit from, let you carry over a skill from it to other jobs. Freelancer had the unique ability to utilize much more and equip any gear, so mastering other jobs eventually built it up to become extremely strong.

That's true

[Valence]

This is a little revisionist history. No one ever dropped Refresh because the Prange didn't really have anything beyond four abilities worth using. Bards also utilized Refresh as a core part of their damage rotation not to simply help healers maintain MP. In fact, that was secondary in higher end content and often led to conflict since you'd have healers spam GCDs heals, especially WHM, only to then complain the Bard wasn't using Refresh for them. Which is likely what contributed to the gradual decline in MP relevance and Refresh altogether.

Likewise, going back to Heavensward and the cross skill system. Tanks really had only one decision to make because Rampart, Provoke, Convalescence, Invigorate and Second Wind were all essentially mandatory. From there you picked some combination of Awareness or Bloodbath. DPS were not any better has you were always choosing Blood for Blood, Internal Release, Second Wind, Bloodbath and Invigorate. Goad was really the only ability swapped on the melee. Prange.

As for leveling other jobs, I have to disagree. Being forced to play a class you may not like isn't fun nor does it encourage people to learn how to play it. We see this even nowadays with leveling and how many people will queue into high level content without a clue what they're doing simply because they need to have all their jobs at max level. The game has never been about leveling multiple classes, but simply providing the option to do so all on one character should you choose. Which is why so many people disliked feeling forced to level other characters.

And in the case of tanks, you were essentially forced to level Gladiator because you needed Provoke. Nowadays you would get kicked for not having Swiftcast in EXs because there's quite literally zero reason not to. Back in ARR days, the game was new and people were still figuring out how to even do things.

Quoting counter examples doesn't make it revisionist because I could (and actually did) quote other examples that weren't always taken. You're even quoting counter examples to your points yourself. Whether it is Protect, Awareness, Bloodbath, Goad, even Feint or Fracture for some rotations (yes it was used as well), there were abilities that were not a full binary 100 to 0. You seem to go under the misconception that I'm saying that the system didn't have flaws, which has never been my intent. I actually believe I also said that there were definitely a lot of meta choices no matter what.
On Refresh actually , if my post history can show one thing, it's probably how I deeply miss resource management and party resource support that used to be core to rphys identity.

If people nowadays would get kicked for not having swiftcast, then I don't know what this game and community have become, truly. It's never been mandatory for anything at all, just in people's imagination. It's never been a problem of the community being new, you had people being rabid about optimization back then as you have today. If pantamelds weren't worth millions of investment today, you'd have everybody in extreme or savage literally kicking anybody without them week one. It's in reality a problem of effort and convenience of use, but I can definitely see the argument that feeling that you have to play a type of content or a class that you don't want to play, isn't necessarily good for the reasons you exposed. But you cannot deny my own experience, because it actually proved beneficial to me.

I honestly have a pretty neutral opinion on having to level other jobs or not though, because I can see the pros and cons about that. Ultimately it always boils down to: what manner of investment players can do to improve their build and class that would be tolerated, or what would not be? Getting benefits from another source of content would ultimately bring people up in arms because they would feel "forced" to play it to be optimal.