Hamlet Defense, more RNG? Discouraging.

[Endemerrin]

RNG is here to stay. Without it the game wouldn't have any longevity.
RNG keeps players with the competitionist mindset unsatisfied with their accomplishments. They will continue playing and paying because they never have it all, and they'll never have it all because they aren't incredibly lucky.
Of course, there's always new content being added, but through RNG the developers can slow the rate of content without losing subscribers.

On the contrary, you make the RNG low and it drives away your dedicated endgame players because they get fed up with getting absolutely no reward for all their effort - while others groups might be having significant luck and receive ten times the amount of loot you've received for ten times less work.

[TheVedis]

On the contrary, you make the RNG low and it drives away your dedicated endgame players because they get fed up with getting absolutely no reward for all their effort - while others groups might be having significant luck and receive ten times the amount of loot you've received for ten times less work.

the rng is required to be low for 1 huge reason you are forgetting


0 cooldown

we have next to no cooldown on re-entry, so without a low drop rate, people will earn everything super quick once they learn how to win

this is something players wanted, no cooldown, they got it, they are now paying the price

the alternative is getting 1 drop and only being allowed to enter every few days....and people will probly have more of an issue with that

[Alderton]

the rng is required to be low for 1 huge reason you are forgetting


0 cooldown

we have next to no cooldown on re-entry, so without a low drop rate, people will earn everything super quick once they learn how to win

this is something players wanted, no cooldown, they got it, they are now paying the price

the alternative is getting 1 drop and only being allowed to enter every few days....and people will probly have more of an issue with that

Happy mediums can exist, though. And I feel as though the current implementation sways more towards frustration than enticement. I've gone days/weeks of doing dungeons for hours a night without seeing anything drop. Maybe my LS is just unlucky, but that's NOT fun. It doesn't make me want to keep trying to get the gear. It makes me want to go do something else.

[EdenArchangel]

this is something players wanted, no cooldown, they got it, they are now paying the price

What players wanted this? I don't remember any such thing in a player's poll

I would gladly be locked out 24 hours or more if I actually got something as opposed to weeks of (winning) effort with nothing to show for it ~_~

[Endemerrin]

What players wanted this? I don't remember any such thing in a player's poll

I would gladly be locked out 24 hours or more if I actually got something as opposed to weeks of (winning) effort with nothing to show for it ~_~

A hundred times this. I'd gladly take longer lock outs if it meant actually having a fighting chance at gear instead of week after week of disappointment. Quite frankly, the only reason I stuck with FFXIV so long is because I had hope it would turn out right. When we got our first instances, I was ecstatic. Dzemael Darkhold? Fun stuff. The drop rate also wasn't entirely abysmal, and at the time the equipment was really good. Things slowly got worse from there on out, with lower drop rates making things more and more frustrating for me.

FFXIV's saving grace to me is 2.0, but if they continue with this trend of rewarding tons of effort with "Well, maybe you'll have better luck next time." over and over again, I don't know if the game will keep my interest for long.

I think one of the most pressing issues is the sheer lack of equipment outside of crafted gear. For us min-maxers, there really isn't much in-between. Either double/triple melded gear or Darklight. Maybe a spare piece of GC gear here and there, or a single piece of militia gear.

We need more options for gear that are accessible with different types of effort. Whether it's incredibly powerful dungeon gear with a low drop rate (like Darklight) or a moderate set of in-between gear with a slightly better drop rate from another dungeon. The more options this game has, the better. Making people choose between two extremes and having little to fill between them isn't really acceptable in a modern day MMO. People like to have options.

[Preypacer]

On the contrary, you make the RNG low and it drives away your dedicated endgame players because they get fed up with getting absolutely no reward for all their effort - while others groups might be having significant luck and receive ten times the amount of loot you've received for ten times less work.

If you look over the history of MMORPGs, particularly 1st and 2nd gen MMORPGs, you'll find that to simply not be the case. Far from it. People play these MMOs for years despite having RNG, low drop rates and the like.

The problem with topics like these, and arguments like yours in particular, Endemerrin, is that they're made through tunnel-vision goggles and judge every situation in isolation instead of considering them as part of a bigger picture. No one sticks with a game, or leaves a game simply due to "this one issue" or "that one feature". It's not that absolute. It's a collection of things that keeps people playing, or pushes them away.

For just one example, Final Fantasy XI. They maintained a healthy, very loyal and dedicated player base who stuck with the game for 7 or more years, and XI was extremely dependent on RNG based rewards. More than that, it was based on RNG, on top of rare spawns with long periods of time between spawn windows. Still, people hung around, even well after MMO's like WoW and its ilk started popularizing the "casual friendly" route where everything comes easier and faster.

And the reason isn't because "all people really love RNG content", although some actually don't mind it at all because they enjoy the activity itself and it isn't about the reward for them. It's because on the whole, RNG was just one wart of several on a MMO experience that also had many benefits and things they enjoyed. The good balanced out the bad.

FFXIV has been RNG based for how long now? People have been stating "SE if you don't fix this NOW! people will leave!" for how long? I've seen this topic come up after every new Primal or other content that's implemented. And every time, those people are still around to repeat it for the next time around. Guaranteed they'll still be around for the next one as well.

Why? Not because they're masochists. It's because, as annoying as the RNG or low-drop rates are to people, there's still enough else about the game they enjoy that they'll continue playing. There are people on these forums right now that I've seen complaining about the same things going back for months. They've been making that threat that they and others will quit if SE doesn't do what they want. And yet they're still here. Still playing, and still making that threat. They'll be here months from now doing it as well, guaranteed.

Why will they still be here? Because despite the issues they make out to be "show-stoppers" for them, there's enough about the game they enjoy and that keeps them playing.

Some people just like to hear themselves talk, they love to be "right", and they love to use hyperbole or absolutes to make their arguments seem bigger or more important than they are.

[Jinko]

For just one example, Final Fantasy XI. They maintained a healthy, very loyal and dedicated player base who stuck with the game for 7 or more years, and XI was extremely dependent on RNG based rewards. More than that, it was based on RNG, on top of rare spawns with long periods of time between spawn windows. Still, people hung around, even well after MMO's like WoW and its ilk started popularizing the "casual friendly" route where everything comes easier and faster.

Well that's all well and good but I wonder how many people it managed to push away with the same design.

I know you are talking about looking at the game as a whole, but for many people the loot situation is a big part of what keeps them playing and good or bad the casual player base do tend to want things as soon as possible.

It all comes down to what kind of player base SE want to attract or keep in the long run.

There are people on these forums right now that I've seen complaining about the same things going back for months. They've been making that threat that they and others will quit if SE doesn't do what they want. And yet they're still here. Still playing, and still making that threat. They'll be here months from now doing it as well, guaranteed.

Yes people keep saying if you don't sort this we will leave, but you don't just up sticks and leave over night it takes time for things to get to a point where that happens, the straw the broke that camels back so to speak. (this is what happened with me in 11 FWIW)

What with Tera, GW2 and Diablo 3 coming out in the next few months SE can't down play the concerns of their player base, they will end up with nobody left otherwise.

[Gerrr]

On the contrary, you make the RNG low and it drives away your dedicated endgame players because they get fed up with getting absolutely no reward for all their effort

And once the dedicated players get all the loot from spamming the event/dungeon non-stop around the clock, they leave for another game to obsess about and "dominate". Same result really.

[Jinko]

And once the dedicated players get all the loot from spamming the event/dungeon non-stop around the clock, they leave for another game to obsess about and "dominate". Same result really.

Its not the same result.

A disgruntled customer is not the same as one who chooses to go elsewhere because of boredom.