Calyx and Preservation

[Cleretic]

And that's why I think there is a possibility it's not of Ancient creation. Why would our Azem make a device that is capable of dimensional fusion which would undo Venat's sundering? And how would pre-sundered Azem know how to make such a device that works in a world they are not, and will not be a part of? And on a meta level, Azem leaving our character the gift of a device that is capable of traveling anywhere is kind of game breaking. Which leads me to believe that our Azem or Venat during her time as Azem found the device during their adventures, and maybe put a protective seal on it.

Actually, it's a fair assumption that its chief purpose is dimensional travel, not fusion; the lalafel didn't graft Aloalo Island onto the Ninth, they traveled there. To ask 'why would Azem make a tool capable of dimensional fusion' is probably like asking 'why would the Wright Brothers create something capable of destroying a building': they didn't, other people brought the creation to that conclusion.

...except that there's a different problem that's also at play with this presumption, that we also hit if we're talking about dimensional travel: the other dimensions did not exist at the time Azem was around. Why create a tool with the express purpose of traveling to a location that literally doesn't exist? Especially given we're not exactly talking about seasoned geniuses in the subject; I don't even know who in Ancient society would be able to predict where the shards would be on a dimensional-physical level (which I can only imagine would be unfathomably difficult, you can't exactly point on a map and go 'there'), but I wouldn't put that bet on Azem.

This is why my suspicion with the key is that it wasn't made by Azem: it was made afterwards, by people evoking Azem's symbol and story after it had faded into legend. That makes a lot more sense to me; the other shards confirmably exist at that point, and the key isn't realistically that much of a leap beyond later tech we've seen. It'd have to be from a group we haven't seen before, but there's a lot of gaps in the game's worldbuilding to fit new, interesting locations.

Also it'd mean we wouldn't get a rehash of the least interesting zone in Endwalker to me, and that'd be great too.

[mallleable]

Actually, it's a fair assumption that its chief purpose is dimensional travel, not fusion; the lalafel didn't graft Aloalo Island onto the Ninth, they traveled there. To ask 'why would Azem make a tool capable of dimensional fusion' is probably like asking 'why would the Wright Brothers create something capable of destroying a building': they didn't, other people brought the creation to that conclusion.

...except that there's a different problem that's also at play with this presumption, that we also hit if we're talking about dimensional travel: the other dimensions did not exist at the time Azem was around. Why create a tool with the express purpose of traveling to a location that literally doesn't exist? Especially given we're not exactly talking about seasoned geniuses in the subject; I don't even know who in Ancient society would be able to predict where the shards would be on a dimensional-physical level (which I can only imagine would be unfathomably difficult, you can't exactly point on a map and go 'there'), but I wouldn't put that bet on Azem.

This is why my suspicion with the key is that it wasn't made by Azem: it was made afterwards, by people evoking Azem's symbol and story after it had faded into legend. That makes a lot more sense to me; the other shards confirmably exist at that point, and the key isn't realistically that much of a leap beyond later tech we've seen. It'd have to be from a group we haven't seen before, but there's a lot of gaps in the game's worldbuilding to fit new, interesting locations.

Also it'd mean we wouldn't get a rehash of the least interesting zone in Endwalker to me, and that'd be great too.

Or another faction who know how to navigate the interdimensional rift.

[Shookbeast]

Actually, it's a fair assumption that its chief purpose is dimensional travel, not fusion; the lalafel didn't graft Aloalo Island onto the Ninth, they traveled there. To ask 'why would Azem make a tool capable of dimensional fusion' is probably like asking 'why would the Wright Brothers create something capable of destroying a building': they didn't, other people brought the creation to that conclusion.

...except that there's a different problem that's also at play with this presumption, that we also hit if we're talking about dimensional travel: the other dimensions did not exist at the time Azem was around. Why create a tool with the express purpose of traveling to a location that literally doesn't exist? Especially given we're not exactly talking about seasoned geniuses in the subject; I don't even know who in Ancient society would be able to predict where the shards would be on a dimensional-physical level (which I can only imagine would be unfathomably difficult, you can't exactly point on a map and go 'there'), but I wouldn't put that bet on Azem.

This is why my suspicion with the key is that it wasn't made by Azem: it was made afterwards, by people evoking Azem's symbol and story after it had faded into legend. That makes a lot more sense to me; the other shards confirmably exist at that point, and the key isn't realistically that much of a leap beyond later tech we've seen. It'd have to be from a group we haven't seen before, but there's a lot of gaps in the game's worldbuilding to fit new, interesting locations.

Also it'd mean we wouldn't get a rehash of the least interesting zone in Endwalker to me, and that'd be great too.

There’s always Ultima. That’s also a theory being put forward, and maybe it has some legs? Do we know if Venat made up the idea of Sundering/Reflections all on her own… or did she maybe encounter something that gave her the idea that inter-dimensional reflections/travel were possible?

And if that’s the case - maaaaaaybe Calyx didn’t learn about reflections from the Ascians - but instead learned from a version of Ultima?

[Cleretic]

Do we know if Venat made up the idea of Sundering/Reflections all on her own… or did she maybe encounter something that gave her the idea that inter-dimensional reflections/travel were possible?

The answer to that is time-paradoxical. Regardless of whether or not she or another person could have come up with the idea itself, chronologically speaking we gave her that idea. We didn't give her the idea of how it could have worked, and it's entirely possible she or one of her allies could've come up with that answer independently (and they definitely did come up with a lot of stuff independently), but if we're asking where she got the baseline idea, it was us.

I think overall with this, people are getting too stuck on the Ancient/Ascians, despite at-best tenuous evidence. I think there's more evidence against Calyx being directly involved with the Ascians than there is evidence for (if anything I think he'd directly oppose them), and the case for the key being directly Ancient-related might be even worse. But here we are, seeing people dig a hole because the map they drew themselves says there's treasure at the bottom.

[Shookbeast]

The answer to that is time-paradoxical. Regardless of whether or not she or another person could have come up with the idea itself, chronologically speaking we gave her that idea. We didn't give her the idea of how it could have worked, and it's entirely possible she or one of her allies could've come up with that answer independently (and they definitely did come up with a lot of stuff independently), but if we're asking where she got the baseline idea, it was us.

I think overall with this, people are getting too stuck on the Ancient/Ascians, despite at-best tenuous evidence. I think there's more evidence against Calyx being directly involved with the Ascians than there is evidence for (if anything I think he'd directly oppose them), and the case for the key being directly Ancient-related might be even worse. But here we are, seeing people dig a hole because the map they drew themselves says there's treasure at the bottom.

We told her - but I’m not sure that confirms the concept/philosophy of dimensional travel/sundering wasn’t a thing before we arrived back in time. And there is Ultima to consider…

Edit:
But more so, what I was getting at is that it’s possible Calyx didn’t learn about shard travel from an Ascian, but rather from something like Ultima.

I just thought it would be cool if Venat possibly learned the theory in the same way. That would put Calyx on par with the Ancients, without having to go to them for information.