Calyx and Preservation

[mallleable]

I have to agree, I hope going forward the story isn't super reliant on the Ancients, and time paradoxes. Plus, I think it would make Calyx's character a lot more interesting if he figured out shard system on his own instead of just 'an Ascian told him.'

[fulminating]

The ascians definitely operated on the ninth and we know ardbert found out from elidibus that he was from the first shard. They didn’t exactly treat it as secret information, and calyx is a pretty big suspect in who they’d want to influence. It just seems unnecessary, like working the bus timetable out from first principles when you can just go to the bus stop and look, even if you decide walking would be better afterwards. (This is an extended metaphor, mucking around with souls doesn’t really seem like the kind of thing that would be approved by ascian higher management, even if shard obliteration would probably sort it out).

[Shookbeast]

The answer to that is time-paradoxical. Regardless of whether or not she or another person could have come up with the idea itself, chronologically speaking we gave her that idea. We didn't give her the idea of how it could have worked, and it's entirely possible she or one of her allies could've come up with that answer independently (and they definitely did come up with a lot of stuff independently), but if we're asking where she got the baseline idea, it was us.

I think overall with this, people are getting too stuck on the Ancient/Ascians, despite at-best tenuous evidence. I think there's more evidence against Calyx being directly involved with the Ascians than there is evidence for (if anything I think he'd directly oppose them), and the case for the key being directly Ancient-related might be even worse. But here we are, seeing people dig a hole because the map they drew themselves says there's treasure at the bottom.

We told her - but I’m not sure that confirms the concept/philosophy of dimensional travel/sundering wasn’t a thing before we arrived back in time. And there is Ultima to consider…

Edit:
But more so, what I was getting at is that it’s possible Calyx didn’t learn about shard travel from an Ascian, but rather from something like Ultima.

I just thought it would be cool if Venat possibly learned the theory in the same way. That would put Calyx on par with the Ancients, without having to go to them for information.

[Cassar]

Plus, I think it would make Calyx's character a lot more interesting if he figured out shard system on his own instead of just 'an Ascian told him.'

Again though, the numbers given to each shard, and calling them reflections and source in the first place, was a nomenclature entirely invented by the Ascians. The numbers are arbitrary, it's not something you can just "find out on your own" given enough research. By all means, he could have found out about the shard system on his own, but he wouldn't be able to know that his shard is called the ninth.

Therefore, the origin of this information has to be an Ascian, and Calyx either got it straight from one of them or from a third party that heard it from them.

The interesting question is whether this was an information willingly given to Calyx by an Ascian, which would imply that the Ascians were attempting to groom him to work for their ends, just like how they did with Unukalhai in Heavensward, or if Calyx took this information by force. Could he have defeated an Ascian and taken a peek into his memories? This could have been the moment that Preservation learned about the existence of other reflections, leading them to take a sudden change of focus towards taking Aether from other reflections and designing that portal to the source.

[Cleretic]

Again though, the numbers given to each shard, and calling them reflections and source in the first place, was a nomenclature entirely invented by the Ascians. The numbers are arbitrary, it's not something you can just "find out on your own" given enough research. By all means, he could have found out about the shard system on his own, but he wouldn't be able to know that his shard is called the ninth.

The numbers aren't necessarily arbitrary. According to Ardbert (who I trust just by virtue of 'why would the writers have him be wrong about this') they're essentially numbered by proximity, and the First is the First simply because it's the closest to the Source. So you could intuit the shard Alexandria is on to be called 'the Ninth' if looking at all available evidence. In that situation you couldn't necessarily intuit that the Source is called the Source, though.

My earnest best guess is that Calyx's information is a few degrees removed, and that the route might be from the millala, which would make that information thousands of years old. But in part, I most believe that because it puts the source of this information as essentially irrelevant, which I actually think is the most useful way to think about Calyx; I think he's being set up as a force in his own right, and while I doubt how he learned this information will mean nothing, I do think that it's far more relevant and far more compelling to be thinking about him as independent anyway.

[fulminating]

Including the source, there’s 6 shards left, 7 destroyed and the void/thirteenth. When the milala left in the fifth calamity, there were 8 and the void with one in the process of being destroyed. By the time krile was shoved through the dimension hole it was down to seven and the void. As the void is the furthest out if number is tied to proximity alone, we can ignore it for these purposes.

It is very hard to conclude that calyx was alive at any point where there were nine shards. Even the milala would have to miscount by calling the source “1st” or include the 13th before the ninth.

E: The milala could have had lahabrea posessing their leader (the speaker) and granting information they shouldn’t have worked out alone and designing that spooky mask room for them. As a scientist I’m sure he’d have interest in seeing what happens if there’s an isolated population of already partially recombined people introduced to another unrecombined world and/or shielded from a rejoining. Weird that the key would be left in their care when though. Even the ascians had to be dead to cross the rift in their crystals.

Edit edit: destroyed might have been an enthusiastic term in the first paragraph, rejoined may have been better.
It doesn’t change anything about calyx, thordan was pretty cool for outplaying the ascians and right up until he turned himself into a pickle did seem to have some idea what was going on. I mean really killing the shadowy manipulator guys and then immediately doing what they wanted him to do is just not a great note to end on.

[mallleable]

Again though, the numbers given to each shard, and calling them reflections and source in the first place, was a nomenclature entirely invented by the Ascians. The numbers are arbitrary, it's not something you can just "find out on your own" given enough research. By all means, he could have found out about the shard system on his own, but he wouldn't be able to know that his shard is called the ninth.

Therefore, the origin of this information has to be an Ascian, and Calyx either got it straight from one of them or from a third party that heard it from them.

The interesting question is whether this was an information willingly given to Calyx by an Ascian, which would imply that the Ascians were attempting to groom him to work for their ends, just like how they did with Unukalhai in Heavensward, or if Calyx took this information by force. Could he have defeated an Ascian and taken a peek into his memories? This could have been the moment that Preservation learned about the existence of other reflections, leading them to take a sudden change of focus towards taking Aether from other reflections and designing that portal to the source.

And that's why I'm starting to think The Key has ties to Venat. What could have happened is that when he, and Preservation were tinkering with the crystal to turn it into The Key, and they get forced to have an Echo-like flashback, and get front row seats to Hydaelyn sundering the world into 14 shards. They could probe further, and unlock the memories of The Milalla traveling from The Source world to The Ninth. It would just be about confirming what they saw.

But why is has Azem magic on it, and not 'Venat magic,' aside form the fact that Venat was a former Azem, is another mystery.

Come to think of it, if it is Venat, then they technically would still be getting their info from an Ascian, just not directly.

[JherekCarnelian]

And that's why I'm starting to think The Key has ties to Venat. What could have happened is that when he, and Preservation were tinkering with the crystal to turn it into The Key, and they get forced to have an Echo-like flashback, and get front row seats to Hydaelyn sundering the world into 14 shards. They could probe further, and unlock the memories of The Milalla traveling from The Source world to The Ninth. It would just be about confirming what they saw.

But why is has Azem magic on it, and not 'Venat magic,' aside form the fact that Venat was a former Azem, is another mystery.

Come to think of it, if it is Venat, then they technically would still be getting their info from an Ascian, just not directly.

I tend to think they got the information from an Ascian, although your theory has some merit.

Also we are dealing with a failed rejoining, the ninth still exists. I wonder if Preservation was originally the ninth's version of the scions/wol they foiled the Ascians and then decided to explore further.

I wonder whether the key reacts to a sundered Azem, or is reacting to Azem's Crystal.

Forgive my somewhat disconnected ramblings.

[Shookbeast]

I tend to think they got the information from an Ascian, although your theory has some merit.

Also we are dealing with a failed rejoining, the ninth still exists. I wonder if Preservation was originally the ninth's version of the scions/wol they foiled the Ascians and then decided to explore further.

I wonder whether the key reacts to a sundered Azem, or is reacting to Azem's Crystal.

Forgive my somewhat disconnected ramblings.

Is it possible someone or some group on the 9th attempted a self-inflicted rejoining? No Ascians involved? Maybe years of research into this attempt is what led to a system where memories would be “preserved” even though the planet was destroyed in the process? But to what end? Body snatching on the Source once the rejoining was complete?

Or, did Preservation stop the rejoining as you say, and then interrogate the Ascian responsible?

[Cassar]

Do we know for sure that there's no more civilization in the ninth? Because the Living Memory zone is in the ninth, and you can clearly see a beautiful cloudy sky with sun shining and everything. Makes you wonder, with all this electrope technology some of the citizens from the ninth could easily have built a spaceship and fled to space or to the moon or whatever.

Also, even if the ninth is now devoid of all human civilization, Calyx's terminal(s) surely must be there somewhere, right?